John Love and Martha

John Love, his wife Martha, and their daughter Elizabeth came to Australia on the “Matilda” which departed from Portsmouth, England on March 27, 1791. He was a member of the newly formed NSW Corps, whose role was to supervise convicts. Although I’ve yet to determine what happened, it’s said “an incident occurred” on April 30, 1791 on the ship which resulted in Love being demoted. Part of the Third Fleet, the ship arrived in Sydney on August 1, 1791.

Although probably desperately poor in England, the personal prosperity of the Love family improved significantly during their first few years in Australia. On February 20, 1794, Love was granted thirty acres of land at “The Ponds”, and on March 14, 1795, a further ninety acres of prime land at “The Field Of Mars”. The land was in the modern day suburb of Eastwood, with the historic “Eastwood House” now located on the land given to him. He later leased that land at “The Field Of Mars” to Captain William Kent, nephew of Governor Hunter. By 1805, the records indicate Love had purchased a further fifty acres of land at Seymour Redbank and employed three men. On August 25, 1812, Love was granted a further forty-five acres of land at Upper Minto on the Nepean River, adjoining the farm of his son-in-law, John Hoare.

Despite this apparent prosperity, his career in the NSW Corps was, at best, a mixed affair. Arriving in Australia as Private, he was promoted to Corporal (March 25, 1791) and then to Sergeant (June 26, 1791). Several months later he was demoted to the role of Private again (December 27, 1791). His name also appears in the court records on several occasions.

In 1794, John Love was mentioned in the court case involving William Joyce and Thomas Daveney. The case was described in these terms in the book “Collins, The Courts and The Colony” (Law and Society in Colonial New South wales 1788-1796″ by J.F. Nagle (UNSW Press 1996 p. 237-239)…

On 31 July 1794… a private soldier in the New South Wales Corps, John Love had become involved in a fight with Joyce and Daveney joined in on the side the soldier. During the fight Joyce received serious injuries, his jaw was broken and as a result he was hospitalised at Parramatta for some two months.

In 1798, John Love was taken to court for refusing to pay back a debt. In the book, “Debt, seduction and other disasters, the author Bruce Kercher says Love owed a Mr Baker some money, and was taken to court. but that Love refused to pay back the money on the grounds that he was a soldier.” The NSW State Records for the Bench of Magistrates for July 21, 1798 notes the following…

John Love who had treated the Summoning Officer with Insolance when he served a summons upon him from this Court, and had refused to obey such summons, alledging that he was soldier appeared to answer to the matter in question, and n consequence of his continuancy and his general bad character (as imparted by Major Foveaux and others) was sentenced to receive 50 lashes, to be imprisoned one month, to find functions for his future good behaviour and to pay Baker the balance of his wheat.

There is a sidenote to the record which says the sentence was remitted (pardoned) on July 27, 1798 through the interception of William Balmain Esq.

This particular incident may help explain why he was discharged from the NSW Corps on July 14, 1798, and then later re-enlisted as a Private in the Col. Francis Grose Company of the NSW Corps (as noted by the 1799 Muster Records.

In common with other members of the NSW Corps, the “Rum Corps”, Love was also probably involved in the production of rum, or at least some form of alcohol, as on Monday, June 4 1806, he was arrested and fined one-hundred Spanish dollars (one of the currencies in use at the time) after the discovery on his property at the “Field of Mars” of a still and other appartus for distilling liquor. The incident was reported in the Sydney Gazette of Wednesday June 6 in these terms…

“On Monday, in consequence of a like information, several Constables were sent to search for a still and other apparatus on the farm of J. Love at the Field of Mars; from whence a large boiler was produced, supposed to be for the purpose of distilling. The owner was in consequence ordered to find bail for his good behaviour.

On Saturday, April 23 1814, the Sydney Gazette reported, John was amongst those responsible for the apprehension of a Mr Harrison, a deserter from the 73rd Regiment…

On Monday last a party of three persons, consisting of Mr. Scott, settler and district constable at the Cow Pastures ; another constable ; and Mr. Love, a settler formerly of the Field of Mars, went out in search of Scott’s horse, which had beep three days missing from its tether; and about 5 miles west of the Cow Pasture river found the horse safely tethered near a clef rock, on entering which they found a man with two muskets in his possession; and as they shewed a determination to apprehend him, he yielded, and informed his captors that a little further west there were some others to whom he would conduct them. This information induced them to proceed thitherward, and having advanced about two miles, saw at a distance a number of men, supposed frtom eight to ten, all armed, and not deeming it prudent to approach near, they retired, taking with them their prisoner, and a mare of Mr Uther’s, together with a horse that had been stolen from Mr Loughlin, a settler, both of which they found tethered close to each other, and licence led them to conclude, that the armed men had removed from the sport where the horses were on their approach. Mr Uther’s horse, and Loughlin’s mare were tethered the same night close to Scott’s horse at the Cowpasture River; but we are sorry to add the next morning both were gone from their fastenings. The apprehended person who was delivered up as a prisoner to the Magistrate of Liverpool, proves to be a deserted from the 73rd, named Harrison, and by whose account the banditi consists of 17 men.

In August 1814, Court of Civil Jurisdiction ordered that the Seymour Farm had to be sold to recover debt…

“Ex parte William Packer, in the matter of Joseph and John Love: Pursuant to an Order of the Court of Civil Jurisdiction, ande in the above matter, the Provest Marshal will cause to be set up for sale by public auction at the Market Place, Sydney, on Thursday the 25th instant at Twelve o’clock, a certain farm and lands, called Seymour’s Farm; containing 80 acres, more or less and situated in the Field of Mars (unless the Debt Costs and all incidental expenses are previously liquidated.) Wm Gorr, Provest Marshal”.

On December 3, 1816, John Love was convicted of stealing government cattle in collusion with two of his convict servants (Joseph Jones, Patrick McGinty) and all were sentenced to hang (NSW Records Reel 6006; 4/3495 p. 421). The incident was reported in the Sydney Gazette on December 7, 1816…

WEDNESDAY. – John Love, Joseph Jones, Charles Pickering, and Patrick McGinnity were arraigned on the charge of stealing a bull n the district of the Cow Pastures, the property of the Crown, on or about the 12th of October last; and the three first named prisoners were found guilty – Death; Patrick McGinnity acquitted.It appeared in evidence that the prisoner Love was a settler, living in the Cow-pasture District, to whom the prisoners Jones and McGinnity had been allowed as servants, and that Pickering was a trader; that many of the cattle composing what are denominated the wild herds, known to be the property of the Crown had been at different times slaughtered, and conveyed away by horses and carts to various parts of the settlement ; and\from the defence set up on behalf of the prisoners, disputing the possibility of identifying in these cattle the property of the Crown, it would appearthat the depredators upon these herds, had generally presumed upon this difficulty, and hence con-sidered that they might in security. This suggestion afforded to His Honor the JUDGE ADVOCATE an ample occasion of explaining away the criminal and erroneous conception, and of clearly demonstrating that the cattle in those pastures were to be identified with much greater facility and certainty than those of any private individual, whose herds might casually intermingle with others, and frequently occasion doubt in their identity : Whereas, that in the present case there could be no doubt, because it was to all well known that ALL the cattle in thosepastures belonged to the Crown, and that it was even a severely punishable trespass for any man to go where they were, without an especial Permission from His EXCELLENCY the GOVERNOR; which measure had been long since adopted for the prevention of such practices as those for which the prisoners at the bar were to answer. -That the very acts of trespassing upon those pastures being known to be criminal, it must be necessarily inferred that no man would there trespass without a criminal intention. In the present melancholy instance the criminal intention had been carried into full effect, and an actual crime perpetrated.This fact being proved, the question of identity was far less difficult, because it was generally known that all the cattle in the place where the offence was committed belonged to the Crown ;& that none could be withdrawn from thence that were not clearly known to be so. The practice of cattle stealing was in general too prevalent ; and the depredations committed upon these herds, particularly, required to be restrained ; which the event of this trial His HONOR had no doubt would lend considerably to effect.

His family appealed successfully for clemency, though it appears he may have been sent to Newcastle on the “Lady Nelson” for a period of time…

” On account of some favourable circumstances in mitigation of his offence I am induced to extend Grace & Mercy unto him and to grant unto him the said John Love a Pardon for his said crime as the sole and express condition that the said John Love shall continue to reside as a convict in the Territory of NSW and the dependancies during the term of his natural life and be kept at hard labour ‘Macquarie'” The pardon was to be null and void if he were found outside NSW.

In a petition to the governor, the Superintendent of John Oxley’s farm requested the sum of 100-pounds to be repaid for the forfeited property. After John’s conviction for stealing cattle, Martha was forced to mortgage the farm (August 13, 1817) and a mare and foal were sold to Thomas Moore for 45 pounds.

Several years later on June 11, 1822, he was also fined Đ2.10 Shillings for employing a bushranger named Murphy (possibly, Patrick Murphy who later worked on nearby Harrington Farm).

Aged 74, and living at Appin, Martha died on November 28, 1822 (V1822 5579 2B/1822) and was buried at St Luke’s Church, Liverpool.

Two years later in 1824, John’s young son John (well, reportedly their son, but perhaps more likely their grandson since he was too young to be there son) was placed in the Orphan’s Home and died, aged 9 with dysentery June 29th, 1824.

Just over four years later, John Love also died, aged 94 on January 4, 1827 (V1827196 2C/1827) and (182772 11/1827).

Children

* Elizabeth Amelia Love was born in England or came to Australia with her parents as a child. She met and married John Hoare, a convict originally from County Wexford in Ireland. In their first few years of marriage John and Elizabeth lived at the Field of Mars before moving to the Campbelltown Districts of Airds and Appin where they began to farm with the assistance of convict labour. They spent the later years of their lives in the Wollongong District and and to be buried at Dapto.

* Joseph Lester Love was born 1793 at Parramatta, NSW. With thanks to researcher, Bev Johnston, I have the following information.

Born Blind. in 1821 he was an object of charity. On list of all person victualled from H.M. Magazines (reel 6016.4/5781.p.68. On April, 1823 He applied for permission to play the voilin in public (reel 6010. 4/3508 p 910. On April, 26th and May 5th Marry applied for permission to marry (reel 6006. 4/3498 p 206) Spouse: Mary Ann GOODWIN Birth: 28 Jan 1803, Parramatta Death: 13 Jun 1878, HF, NSW Father: GOODWIN Marr: 23 Nov 1818, St Phillips CE, Sydney Children: Martha Malvinia Matilda (1819-1899) John (1822-1887) Robert (1824-1875) Ann (1826-1915) Joseph (1829-1914) Thomas (1831-1878) Charles Steptoe (1833-1905) Jane (1835-1841).

Lesley Ford notes…

Although the reason is unclear, Joseph Love was Baptised as an adult on 22 April 1823 at St. Mary’s Sydney.

And with thanks to Kerrie Beers, some further information about Joseph, as per comment below.

Joseph was bequeathed Brands Farm from Curtis Brand in 1800. Brands Farm was a near neighbouring one to John’s at The Ponds. “…Unto Joseph Love a blind child of Sydney aforesaid all that my farm known by the name of Brands Farm situate at the Ponds in the Territory aforesaid consisting of 30 acres of land to have & to hold the same for & during his natural life & afterwards to demise to any person he may think proper”

1814 : Muster p78 Blind Boy on farm of Curtis Brand. Born here – on stores – charity – Liverpool

Wentworths papers Superintendent of Police Col. Sect. Office 8th April 1823…
Sir, With every disposition to forward the innocent recreation of the inhabitants of this town. The Governor has commanded me to submit to the consideration of the Sydney Bench whether the enclosed application for Joseph Love a blind man to play the violin until 9 o’clock every night for the support of himself & his family, can be admitted consistently with good police ~ J Goulburn

19.7.1833 Joseph mentioned in the “Australian” page 3 col 2 Music; Joseph Love, the celebrated blind fiddler is the first Australian muscian who ever learned to play the violin. Although quite blind, he is considered one of the best musicians in the colony.

Joseph was buried 22.10.1836 St. James Sydney

Lesley Ford also notes…

The House and Garden in Princes Street, The Rocks was also bequeathed to Joseph Love in the Will of Curtis Brand. This house sheltered his wife and children and also various Goodwin relatives. Who knows what happened to the farm at the Ponds, as after the death of Joseph, Mary Ann was forced to send the three youngest boys to the Liverpool Orphanage as she was no longer able to sustain them. Mary Ann (Goodwin) died a pauper.

* Robert Love was born April 29, 1795 (V1795 446 1A) at Sydney Cove, NSW.

* Mary Maria Love was born December 8, 1799 at Sydney Cove, NSW and was was baptised on December 22, 1799 at St. Phillip’s Church of England Sydney, NSW. According to the Monaro Pioneers website, Mary had several relationships. Although they didn’t marry, her first relationship with George Morris resulted in the births of John Love and Thomas Love. Presumably this was the same John Love who died in the orphanage in 1824. The pioneers website also records the mariage of Mary to Thomas McGuire June 7, 1819 in St. Luke’s Church of England, Liverpool, NSW, which resulted in the birth of nine children. Thomas McGuire was a convict who arrived at Port Jackson aboard the ship ” Three Bees ” on the 6th May 1814. The information on the website then gets a little confusing, referring to another husband by the christian name only of William, and with a comment about John Love who died in 1824 as being his child.

Colonial Secretary’s Papers

October 1816, he supplied the Crown with 1,000 portions of fresh meat.

7 December 1816 Extract from Sydney Gazette – John Love sentenced to death for stealing a bull in the Cowpastures.

24 December 1816 – Commutation Warrant for stealing cattle (stole a bull from Cowpastures in collusion with 2 of his convict servants) all three were sentenced to death, John’s sentence commuted to life in the Colony at hard labour after family pleas for clemency and the property at Appin forfeited to the Crown.

24 December 1816 – To be sent to Newcastle for stealing cattle on the ‘Lady Nelson’. 3 December 1816 – Tried at Criminal Court – received life. 17 other prisoners and 6 Runaways. ‘Lady Nelson’ was to collect and return with Lime & Rosewood plank or be laden with coals.

After appeals by the family, clemency was granted on December 24, 1816.

24 December1816 – ” On account of some favourable circumstances in mitigation of his offence I am induced to extend Grace & Mercy unto him and to grant unto him the said John Love a Pardon for his said crime as the sole and express condition that the said John Love shall continue to reside as a convict in the Territory of NSW and the dependancies during the term of his natural life and be kept at hard labour ‘Macquarie'” The pardon was to be null and void if he were found outside NSW.

31 December 1816 – John on list of prisoners to be sent to Newcastle per Lady Nelson.

1817 – Property at Appin forfeited to Crown because of his conviction for stealing cattle.

11 June 1822 – On return of fines imposed by the Magistrates at Cambletown on persons violating Government orders for employing a Bushranger named Murphy – fined Đ2.10 Shillings

The Great Debate about John and Martha

As members of the “lower orders”, the official records of the lives of John and Martha have been difficult to fathom. There is, for example, the record of the marriage of John Love and Martha Searl (widow) on May 6, 1787 at Sandhurst, England. If that record’s correct, it’s possible that Martha had been married to Roger Searl, captain of the Royal George which sunk with a total loss of life in 1782. For a man of such advanced years, it is also possible that John Love was also previously married and may have had children, but this has yet to be verfied.

Researcher, Graham Lewis points out the difficulty of confirming this as their marriage…

As for the marriage of John Love and Martha Searl, I don’t find that at all credible. Someone who was the widow of the captain of the Royal George would have been marrying way out of her class if he needed to sign on the NSW Corps as a private! If he’d been a senior officer in the Corps, perhaps, but as a private??!! I don’t think so.

Even the birth records for their young daughter, Elizabeth, are difficult to confirm. There are actually two entries for the birth of Elizabeth Love on the International Genealogical Index: the most likely being January 23, 1786 at Hampshire, in which case she was born before they married.

Researcher, Graham Lewis (who has commented below) also questions the idea she was born in England…

Throughout her life she was regularly recorded in musters, and in the 1828 census, as being born in the colony, i.e. in NSW. The only mention of her having been born in England (leading to an assumption that she must have arrived with her parents on the Matilda) was AFTER her death – information provided by others, not by herself or her mother, as would have been the case at all the musters and census. And the credibility of the headstone and death certificate information is zilch – one claims she was born in Hampshire and the other in Bristol – on opposite sides of the country!
The death certificate and headstone imply a year of birth c1782. The first time her age was recorded in NSW was in the 1828 census, when she said she was 37, i.e. born c1791, consistent with being born in the colony after the Matilda’s arrival that year. The lack of any other children born between 1782 and Joseph’s birth in 1793 tends to corroborate a 1791 birth for Elizabeth.1

I’ve yet to see an absolutely accurate record of the Shipping LIst for the Matilda for the Third Fleet? Does anyone have one which can confirm Elizabeth Love arrived with John and Martha?

Researcher, Lesley Ford (see comments below) is also interested in this debate…

I am very interested to hear the views of yourself and others regarding Elizabeth and the marriage of John and Martha (nee Merriman) – my information is they were married 7 May 1787 in Sandhurst Berkshire, Eng. and that Elizabeth had been born 28 Jan 1785 in Bristol, Gloucestshire.

Someday it will be confirmed, I’m sure. What evidence do you have?

Miscellaneous Notes and Questions

* The depositions about the incident on April 30, 1791 came from William Beckwith, an ensign in the NSW Corps and from John Cawood, Matthew Weatherhead and John Marshall, respectively, the First mate, the Master and the Second Mate of the ship ‘Matilda’. These depositions referred to events on the transport ship on the 30 april 1791. ( J Cobley “Sydney Cove” 1791-1792 P.102)

* From the time of the departure of the colony’s first governor, Arthur Phillip, in December 1792, until the arrival of Governor John Hunter in September 1795, the colony was administered by the commanding officer of the NSW Corps, first Francis Grose and then William Paterson. Under Grose, the decision was made to increase the quantity of food and goods available. To achieve this, he allotted 100 acres of land to every officer who asked for it. He also granted land to non-commissioned officers, to privates, to emancipists and to expirees. All of them received supplies for two years from the public stores and the services of convicts free of charge.

* On June 23, 1810, the Sydney Gazette reports the further sale of personal property.

To be sold by private contract, separately or together, a capital draught horse, and good cart and harness compleat. For further particulars apply to Mr William Parker, Pitt’s Row; or to Mr John Love, Settler at the Field of Mars.

* There is an interesting footnote here about ship on which they came, The Matilda, and what happened after it left Sydney.

MATILDA British whaler under the command of Captain Matthew Weatherhead. The Matilda had sailed from England on March 27 1791, and had touched at Port Jackson and Peru before arriving in Tahiti on February 14, 1792, anchoring in Vaitepiha Bay. For some inscrutable reason Captain Weatherhead stayed only three days at Tahiti.

On the night of February 24, 1792, the Matilda foundered on Mururoa atoll, 640 miles south-east of Tahiti (see the March 1792 commentary in Part I). All of the crew were saved and reached Tahiti on March 5. Soon afterwards the schooner Jenny from Bristol arrived in Tahiti, and when she sailed for America Captain Weatherhead and four members of the crew went with her. Instead of waiting for another ship, three of the men took one of the four whaleboats of the Matilda, fitted it with sails of native matting, and sailed for Port Jackson. They were never heard from again.

If they had waited only a few weeks, they could have sailed back to Europe with Captain Bligh in the Providence. Bligh arrived on April 10 and when he left a little over three months later, he took fifteen of the Matilda’s crew with him. The remaining six wanted to stay on Tahiti. One of them, the Swede Anders Lind, became a kind of military advisor to Pomare I.

In February 1826 Captain Frederick Beechey in HMS Blossom found parts of the wreck of the Matilda on the northern shore of Mururoa.

Has anyone seen a ships log for the Matilda which may contain further information about John and Martha, or did it go down with the ship?

146 Comments

  1. Hey james, that has got to be the best description of John Love I’ve ever seen!! People spend years researching and you’ve summed his life up in two words “mad, bad”!!! Hehehe. Yeah, he seemed like a character. He was also my great great great great great grandfather. The family name line is Love-Hoare-Rixon-Laing-Rixon-Dunn-O’Brien. James

  2. Hi there James,
    I am the gg grandaughter of James Rixon and Elizabeth Hoare so I think that makes John and Martha my gggg grandparents!! What an interesting man he was …..thankyou for the information which will be passed down through my family…
    Kind Regards
    Anne

  3. Hi
    I think some of the info above re Elizabeth Love is completely wrong. Throughout her life she was regularly recorded in musters, and in the 1828 census, as being born in the colony, i.e. in NSW. The only mention of her having been born in England (leading to an assumption that she must have arrived with her parents on the Matilda) was AFTER her death – information provided by others, not by herself or her mother, as would have been the case at all the musters and census. And the credibility of the headstone and death certificate information is zilch – one claims she was born in Hampshire and the other in Bristol – on opposite sides of the country!
    The death certificate and headstone imply a year of birth c1782. The first time her age was recorded in NSW was in the 1828 census, when she said she was 37, i.e. born c1791, consistent with being born in the colony after the Matilda’s arrival that year. The lack of any other children born between 1782 and Joseph’s birth in 1793 tends to corroborate a 1791 birth for Elizabeth.1
    I’ll be happy to revise my view if someone can point to a credible record of (our) John & Martha’s English marriage, and the English baptism of their child Elizabeth (and some evidence of other English-born siblings who died in infancy) but to date I simply can’t see that anyone has done that.
    A good starting point would be to learn exactly where John was enlisted by Major Grose, but I can’t find any hint of that, nor any likelihood that such info has survived. But without such info, it will be very hard to link any English John/Martha marriage to the couple who arrived on the Matilda.
    As for the marriage of John Love and Martha Searl, I don’t find that at all credible. Someone who was the widow of the captain of the Royal George would have been marrying way out of her class if he needed to sign on the NSW Corps as a private! If he’d been a senior officer in the Corps, perhaps, but as a private??!! I don’t think so.
    Sadly, the IGI coverage is far from complete in some counties and I suspect that the real John/Martha marriage is one of the missing ones. And even the current work going on in Salt Lake City to digitise and index all their parish register films doesn’t offer much prospect. Some dioceses were dead against filming by the Mormons, and have remained so, and I suspect it’ll be a long time before a lot of the gaps are filled.
    Cheers
    Graham

  4. Thank you very much for your emails clarifying points by about Elizabeth Love and John Hoare. I’m very keen for the information to be as accurate as possible and through this website have been able to update some commonly held myths along the way. I have a couple of questions/source information which I hope you may be able to assist with.

    Re: JOHN HOARE
    > John was one of a few of the younger “bit players” who pleaded for mercy and had their sentences commuted to transportation. All the above is to be found in the surviving court martial papers. John rates just a couple of sentences of script in something over 100 pages. The events were also reported in the (London) Times, September 1798.
    > John then spent about nine months on the Portsmouth prison hulks before joining the Canada for the 6-month trip to NSW with the others whose sentences had been commuted. They were joined by William Redfern, who I think was involved in the mutiny at the Nore, but I can’t swear to that. Redfern in Sydney is named after him of course.

    So just by way of clarification, are you saying the mutiny Hoare was involved in was not part of The Great Mutiny at The Nore? If you have seen a copy of the court martial papers (and in particular the reference to John Hoare) and the text from the London Times, I wonder if you might send that through so I can publish the information on the site, as I think many many Hoare researchers would love to see the information, as I have never seen either of these documents quoted before.

    I agree with you about the lack of irrefutable information about John and Martha (and Elizabeth), but it’s been reported so often it seems to have “become” history, if you know what I mean.

    Cheers

    James

  5. My history also starts here with Love-/Hoare-James Rixon/Goodwin-James Rixon/Hoare-then to William Rixon/Agnes Findlay to Eva Stuart Rixon/Norman Holyroyd Benson.These were my grandparents and I have all their history from them to the present day.Anyone on this tiny Benson line//????.Thanks for a great insight into the earlier lives.I have just retired and have begun my research.I am addicted .
    Cheers,
    Carolyn

  6. Hello, I am a descendent of John and Martha Love’s son, Joseph Lester. I have quite a bit of information on this line and would love to hear from anyone wishing to share information.

  7. Hello Bev, lovely to hear from you. I’ve been quite fascinated by the story of Joseph Lester and it was quite a buzz to see the references to him in the Grace Karskens book about The Rocks. To add to the depth of information I have on this page about him, would you be willing to share a basic biography that lists his marriage details, children’s names (dates), and details of his death and burial or whatever you might have? Cheers, James

    Thanks also to Carolyn for your comment last month. I am sorry I haven’t responded earlier, but the Christmas season has, of course, been very busy and I haven’t spent any time in the last few weeks on family history research. But there’s another new year’s resolution to work on…

  8. Hi there,
    Thanks for all the information! I am doing research for my partner’s grandfather as he was struggling a little.
    I’m english and living in London which means I have access to lots of records that he cannot get onto so I offered my help. It’s been incredibly interesting!

    They come from the line, Love – Hoare – Seymour – Hore – Voss (Not sure if I’ve written that correctly, but something along those lines!)
    Very strange to think how many distant cousins they might have in Australia!
    Thanks once again!

    Katy

  9. Hi James,
    Congratulations on your interesting site
    I am also descended from John and Martha through Joseph Lester Love and Mary Ann Goodwin, my line is through John Love and Ellen Carey, their daughter Lucy Ann Love was my grgrgrandmother and moved from her birthplace in Eden to the Monaro district upon her marriage. I am happy to share my information on the family and my research which includes copies of the original letters and information regarding the three youngest children of Joseph Lester being accepted by the orphanage, and death and baptismal certificates etc., transcriptions of all these are in my notes and on the above site! Some of the information has been taken from the book “Murder Mayhem & Misdemeanors on the Cowpastures River” by Marion Star, her daughter Fiona Star,was very helpful on information regarding the orphanage, and has produced a very interesting booklet on the subject, another researcher Jan Johnson who has done years of work on the family, contributed much of this information.

    I tend to have also thought in the past of the possibility that Elizabeth was fathered by someone else and John Love adopted her as his daughter on his marriage to Martha.
    I am very interested to hear the views of yourself and others regarding Elizabeth and the marriage of John and Martha (nee Merriman) – my information is they were married 7 May 1787 in Sandhurst Berkshire, Eng. and that Elizabeth had been born 28 Jan 1785 in Bristol, Gloucestshire.

    I am happy to e-mail information to others researching the family, also pleased to be corrected on any errors.

    cheers
    Lesley

  10. Hi James
    Me again, I have been looking through my information and I have a copy of the Parish Record in Sandhurst on 7 May 1787 and in this case at least the IGI appears to be correct – it was a marriage by license and both parties signed with a x mark, this will also interest Graham Lewis. It seems likely to me that being illiterate, it is unlikely that Martha came from a higher class, or was married to someone of a higher station, although possible.

    regards
    Lesley

  11. Looking at the Parish Records the marriage is confirmed as being on 7 May 1787 in the Parish of Sandhurst (Berks.), John Love was a Bachelor and Martha Searl/e was a widow. The minister was J. Richards and the witnesses were James Giles and John Mason it was a marriage by license and both party’s signed with an x mark.

    The following is open for question, Martha’s previous husband was Joseph Searle. The marriage took place on 24 Dec 1778 Aston Tirrold, Berkshire.

    My question is where did the maiden name Merriman come from?

    The book by C.J. Smee “Third Fleet Families of Australia” state that Elizabeth was born in Hampshire. As do her Burial records which have her also in Hampshire, but in 1782! She died in Castlereagh Street, Sydney on 3rd March 1878 and was buried 5th March 1878 at Dapto, where most of her children and grandchildren lived.

    If this is factual, it is possible that Elizabeth was illegitimate and born after the death of Joseph Searle. Changing 1828 Census figures and facts, could have been a way to legitimise her birth.

    Lesley

  12. Lesley – great to hear from you. I think one of the keys to solving part of the mystery is a definitive Third Fleet shipping list. I´ve seen a convict list for the third fleet, but never a list of free settlers. If such a list exists, it would surely prove whether Elizabeth was born in England or Australia. A good first step, I reckon in trying to get to the bottom of everything. And yes, a great observation about the 1828 Census as a means of legitimising birth. I´m reminded of a saying of Janet Reakes, the late genealogist which was ¨mother´s baby; fathers maybe¨. James

  13. Hi James

    It is doubtful that John, Matilda and Elizabeth Love were mentioned on a shipping list for “Matilda” as shipping Lists of Passengers did not become mandatory until the 19th Century, so the list of convicts for “Matilda” possibly came off some other list, e.g. convicts arriving in Port Jackson that year. I quess we can only go on other records, and if they are contradictory then we may never know.

    I would be more inclined to be looking for the Parish Record for Elizabeth’s birth, I tend to believe that this was in Hampshire which is actually in quite close proximity to Sandhurst, Berks. (Google Earth says only 40miles by road these days). If the marriage to Joseph Searle in fact took place in Aston Tirrold, Berks. in 1778, this is also in the same area.

    regards
    Lesley

  14. Hi James

    Just jumped on to see if you had a Burial place for John Love as he died in Sydney, I ‘m going to Waverley & Botony to do some family grave stone pic’s & check for other possible burials there of family deaths in Sydney. I wasn’t expecting to find the “Great Love debate”!

    This is great stuff James, good for you its about time too. I started on my family tree abt 25yrs ago, after a 10yr break, & having time now, I’ve resumed work on my tree, I was amazed to find after all these years that no one had gotten any further than Aus than when I started 25yrs ago,

    So I ‘d like to through my hat into the ring, when I get back home I will dig out old letters, from over 20yrs ago regarding the illegitiment question . also Martha Merriman was married to a John Luff , 25yrs ago IGI’s had her to John Love so every body assumed he had either married twice , or martha Searles maiden name was Merriman, well Lesley’s info here makes it quite clear to me having the info from my letters which had come from a family member who was then 97yrs old.

    My connection is through James Rixon & Sarah Spears, James Rixon & Elizabeth Hoare, James Rixon & Amelia Goodwin / John Hoare & Elizabeth Love & of cause John Love & Martha Searle.

  15. Hi Annette, it was great to hear from you. And thanks for the comments about the need to verify some of the facts. The big dilemma we all face is the lack of written records, especially for people who may not have been literate, or went under the radar. I think we all look forward to hearing from you about those letters. James

  16. Hi James

    Sorry for the delay in reply, when I last wrote I was staying for a few days at my daughters home in Pagewood & I had only taken a few notes with me. Since returning home I have been going through my old reseach notes & correspondence letters that refer to the old family story passed down inregards to Martha Searle, The Royal George, Illegitimecy & sea fairing nobility.

    Now I must say it makes for a good story, how much is fact, or just family tradition, I don’t know, but what is more than likley true is the illegitimate part.

    First of all I better fill you in on my original inquerry letter & that will lead back to the Love story.

    Back in 1988/89 I’d contacted my gr Aunt Phyllis Rixon (still alive 92yrs young) for info abt Hydes, Martins & Rixon’s, she put me in contact with reseachers that had been in contact with her over the years + coppies of there letters & family files, which then lead me to the south coast, with the next inquerry in Sept 1989 to Marnie Hall of the Killer whale museum who at the time was compiling a history.

    I wrote to her asking if she could help me find out more about my ancestors from Eden & surrounding areas, in particular to the pubs, whaling & a museum I was told about, I sent all info I had including varrious licences & bench records etc & asked if she could tell me about John & Joseph Love who went sureties on varrious Pubs over serveral years + other people in the doc’s, including Rixons, Hydes etc, which she return with great info+also organized a tour for me, which I did in that October.

    Marnie then gave me contact no’ for Jack Burgess who was then the curator of Bega pioneer museum for more info on Rixons Loves, Hoare & Hydes, which he provided great info, he also told me about old family tradition passed down through old fam members regarding Martha Searle, apparently she was the illegitimate daughter of ( ? Lockhart) sister or cousin of admiral Lockhart ? and Richard Kempenfelt 1718-1782 who was descendant from Swedish Nobility. Richard Kempenfelt went down on the Royal George.

    Has anyone heard of that one yet? Anyway Jack also put me on to another chap Lyall Gregory regarding the Hydes as I was stuck thanks to an incorrect name entry in a family bible.

    Lyall had been doing research for many years with an old chap called Isadore Ryan from Bega who was 89yrs at time of my letter 19 Oct 1989 amongst others who have work on monaroo pioneers, in Lyall’s letter he asked if Jack had told me about the old fam info,Lyall said that much of it is family tradition but most is documented in the Swedish house of nobility, and also by comparison of old photos with portraits around 1780- 1782.

    He also did a rough chart from his family link – Mary Ann Keefe 1840 daughter from 2nd marriage of Martha Malvina Matilda Love 1819-1899 daughter of Josegh Lester & Mary Ann Goodwin – John Love & Martha (Searle) daughter ( ? Lockhart) & Richard Kempenfelt son of Gov Magnas Kempenfelt & Ann Hunt, Gov Magnus Kempenfelt son of count Jonas Kempenfelt of Sweden & Anne Cullberg.

    How about that told you was a good story! How ever its interesting to note that Martha Malvina Matilda Love’s 3rd Marriage to Thomas George Gill named their 3rd daughter Dalitha Lockhart Gill born 16 Jan 1863 in Onion Downs QLD.

    Where did the Lockhart come from? and do a bit of a google with any of theses names & check nobility for Lockhart females names are Martha’s, Matilda’s, Elizabeths, Dalethia’s, theres even a Malvina, also the names Searle, Serle, Lockhart,Kempenfelt are found in various Berkshire & Hampshire Directories, the Gentlemans Magazine, Compendium of the Hisyory of Birkshire.

    alot of this type data you can look up on google books.

    Mabe this is a clue or Maybe these people were like movie stars and everybody named their children after them I don’t know, but I agree we need to get Elizabeths Birth cert.

    James If you would like me to send copy of letters to you let me Know, also if any one is in contact with Jack Burgess he might enlighten, debunk or have new info by now as I said it was a long time ago.

    cheers for now

    1. Can anyone help with information about the possible link with Admiral Kempenfelt. A Swedish researcher with an interest in this possible link is visiting Australia soon. If anyone can shed any light on this, and in particular, may have some information about Lyall Gregory, please drop me a line via this website james @ jamesobrien.id.au or leave a comment here. Thanks, James

      1. Hi James,
        I am a descendent of George Morris and Mary Maria Love. It seems Thomas McGuire died in 1831, and Mary married George Morris (not William) in 1831 http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100077903077&lds=1&region=16&regionfriendly=Southwest+Pacific&frompage=99 . I am descended through their son William Morris who was born at Illawara in 1832 http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100216899647&lds=1&region=16&regionfriendly=Southwest+Pacific&frompage=99 . Hopefully this clears up some of the confusion.
        Kind regards,
        Graeme Lovell

  17. Hi James

    In regards to shipping records for the Matilda, did they have a lot of old or sickly men on board, or some kind of problem I can’t rember off hand. If so maybe a check of the cheif surgeons records may state passengers.

    I live about 15 min between both state archives and the family history centre, I could check or if there is something else let me know. Also I am doing publican licenses at present at archives, I ‘ve got some Love info if anyone intersted.

    Also I would like to get in contact with Lesley if its possible could you let me know how to get in contact with her.

    Thanks

  18. Hi Annette,

    Thanks for all the information. There’s a lot there to take in. I think it could take some time to absorb it all!!!

    I thought it was worth going through the recorded history logically to see which bits stand up to scrutiny and which are worthy of further investigation.

    It’s interesting you mention the Royal George, because there’s also the theory about Martha that she was married to Roger Searle who was captain of the Royal George when it sunk. And now there’s the assertion that Martha was the illegitimate daughter of Richard Kempenfelt who also went down on the Royal George in 1782. Whatever is the case, it’s interesting Martha gets mentioned in two different ways being linked to the Royal George.

    Anyway, the question begs: did Kempenfelt have an illegitimate daughter to a sister or coustin of Admiral Lockhart? And if he did, was it Martha?

    The only hint of his personal life I could find from an hour or so of internet research comes in in the book, The Georgian Era, which you can download as a pdf file from Google Books, The only reference to his personal life is this sentence “In private life he was admired and respected on account of his piety, benevolance and agreeable manners.”

    I don’t think we can rule the theory in or out at the moment, as there just doesn’t seem to be evidence either way. Unless, of course, someone else knows more information about Kempenfelt?

    Deep down I quite like the idea of a bit of Swedish ancestry though, as it’s a little more exotic than my Irish, English, Scottish ancestry!!! And it might help, as I’m currently learning Swedish for a planned overseas holiday.

    I will pass on your details to Lesley

    James

  19. Hi James & Annette,

    Wow, I haven’t checked this website for a while and suddenly all this action. This is great and I will need time to digest it all, some of this information I have not heard before, the part about the passengers on the “Matilda” certainly rings true, apparently mostly old and infirm before the voyage. I have also come by the obituary for Elizabeth Love, supplied by Jan Johnson, from an Illawarra Paper 1878 as follows:

    “In the following issue of the 5th instant, a notice appeared, announcing the death of another lady, whose life had almost xxxxxx? a century, and whose connection with this district has been long and intimate. We allude to Mrs. John Hore, relict of the late Mr. John Hore, and mother of Mr. Charles Hore, of West Dapto. The deceased lady reached the great age of 96 years. Her residence in this colony, was about coeval with the history of its colonization, she being only ten years of age when she arrived in Port Jackson with her parents. She therefore constituted one of the population of Australia 86 years out of the 90 years of it’s existence as a British Territory. In her last days, few if any other persons in this or any of these colonies could say so much in this respect. She was one of the pioneers of Australian colonization in the true sense of the term, having whitnessed the rise of this great dependency of the British Empire from a state of absolute barbarism to its present proud and important position as a civilized community and unexampled field for enterprise. Mrs. Hore resided many years in this district with her husband and a large family, of which Mr. Charles is the younger member. She survived her husband several years, however, and for some considerable time past she resided at Sydney with one of her daughters, Mrs. Phibbs. It was only latterly that her health, which hitherto had been of the most robust character, began to fail, and finally, on Sunday7, the 3rd instant, her spirit passed away from it’s earthly tenement, which from sheer decay of nature, had become incapable of longer retaining it. Her remains were brought per steamer, on the following Monday evening, and on being landed at Wollongong were conveyed to St. Francis Xaviers Church, where, in the absence of ther Rev. Dean Flanagan, the Rev. P
    O’Reilly of Dapto, performed the usual ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church on such occasions. In the forenoon of the same day, the funeral cortege proceeded to the Catholic cemetery, West Dapto, where the remains were deposited with the sacred dust of some of the relatives of the deceased who had gone before. The Rev. P O’Reilly officiated on this occasion also, and the mourners included friends of the deceased from Sydney, in addition to Mr. Charles Hore, and several members of his family.”

    This really only confirms that she was born in England c. 1782 and that she lived in Dapto for many years with her husband and children, only returning to Sydney in her final years to live with her daughter. I don’t know if this is conclusive , it does concur with the death certificate, although the details were possibly supplied by the same source for both. It is interesting all the same.

    Lesley

  20. You are most welcome James, there is nothing like an “Obituary” to shed a bit of light, if you contact me at my e-mail address I can scan the whole document, as I left out a few bits, you might rather post the original on the site!

    Lesley

  21. Thank you James for all your work and thanks to the contributors with their comments.

    I too am a relation via the line of Joseph Love – Martha Mulvinia Matilda Love – and Dalitha Lochardt Gill.
    I am confused about Martha Love/Searl/e – when I do a check on the IGI site the marriage of a Joseph Searle on 24/12/1778 Aston Tirrold, Berkshire the spouse is a Martha FULLER.

    Lyle

  22. Hi James,
    Thought you would like to add this to your information about Joseph Love.

    Joseph was bequeathed Brands Farm from Curtis Brand in 1800. Brands Farm was a near neighbouring one to John’s at The Ponds.
    “…Unto Joseph Love a blind child of Sydney aforesaid all that my farm known by the name of Brands Farm situate at the Ponds in the Territory aforesaid consisting of 30 acres of land to have & to hold the same for & during his natural life & afterwards to demise to any person he may think proper”

    1814 : Muster p78 Blind Boy on farm of Curtis Brand. Born here – on stores – charity – Liverpool

    Wentworths papers Superintendent of Police Col. Sect. Office
    8th April 1823
    Sir,
    With every disposition to forward the innocent recreation of the inhabitants of this town. The Governor has commanded me to submit to the consideration of the Sydney Bench whether the enclosed application for Joseph Love a blind man to play the violin until 9 o’clock every night for the support of himself & his family, can be admitted consistently with good police ~
    J Goulburn
    19.7.1833 Joseph mentioned in the “Australian” page 3 col 2 Music; Joseph Love, the celebrated blind fiddler is the first Australian muscian who ever learned to play the violin. Although quite blind, he is considered one of the best musicians in the colony.

    I have no idea where the Lester part of his name comes from, in 25 years I have never seen this name on a document & I have asked
    researchers who have it listed within their information & no one seems to know. Can someone please enlighten me?

    Joseph was buried 22.10.1836 St. James Sydney

    Kerrie

  23. Hi Kerrie & James,

    The House and Garden in Princes Street, The Rocks was also bequeathed to Joseph Love in the Will of Curtis Brand. This house sheltered his wife and children and also various Goodwin relatives. Who knows what happened to the farm at the Ponds, as after the death of Joseph, Mary Ann was forced to send the three youngest boys to the Liverpool Orphanage as she was no longer able to sustain them. Mary Ann (Goodwin) died a pauper.

    The only place I have seen Lester used as a middle name is in the IGI It would be interesting to find out where it came from.

    Although the reason is unclear, Joseph Love was Baptised as an adult on 22 April 1823 at St. Mary’s Sydney, so I presume he would have used Lester then if it was applicable. I have wondered if Joseph was rejected by his parents at the Ponds and taken in by Curtis Brand, this would explain the legacy and the late Baptism.

    cheers
    Lesley

  24. Hi James & Lesley,
    While you may be right about the Lester being adopted by Joseph himself when he was baptised as an adult the name does not appear on his baptism register. I am very suspicious of IGI listings where members of the LDS church have submitted the information, so often when the original register has been consulted I have found the information submitted is wrong. Perhaps the name Lester appeared on the baptism register for one of his children. I will check when I am able.

    I thought Curtis Brands property at the Rocks was left to John Watson?
    “Unto John Watson now of Sydney aforesaid any house or garden situate on the Rocks on
    the West Side of Sydney Cove in the Territory aforesaid with all the appurtenances
    there with belonging & unto Edward Elliott of the Northern Boundaries in His Majesty’s Territory aforesaid all the sheep that I may now be possessed of & are now in his possession Unto Joseph Love a blind child of Sydney aforesaid all that my farm known by the name of Brands Farm situate at the Ponds in the Territory aforesaid
    consisting of 30 acres of land to have & to hold the same for & during his natural life & afterwards to demise to any person he may think proper. ”

    If you are also have family connections to the Goodwins you may be interested in the Supreme Court case R. v. Kilmartin. May 1835. Joseph’s son John & brother-in-law Andrew Goodwin found a body on Botany Road & were witnesses at the case. It is mentioned they followed “Joe Love, a blind man about the town” I have no idea who the George Love is mentioned in the case & can only think it is a miss print as the actual source is from the “Australian” newspaper.

    Kerrie

  25. Hi Kerrie

    I should not have been in such a rush before, it was Grace Karkstens book that (wrongly) quoted the Princes Street property was left to Joseph Love by Curtis Brand, when it was actually just the farm at the ponds – as Joseph and his family lived the Rocks (the 1828 Census refers to Mary Goodwin, laundress age 50 as being ‘ lodger at Jos. Love”), I had thought it possible that Joseph had exchanged the farm for the house, which would have been of far more use to him.

    I also have no faith in the IGI as a source, and maybe I worded it badly, however, I hold a copy of the Baptism (Transcription) in 1823, which is devoid of much information, and I agree that if his middle name was Lester, he surely would have been aware of it by the age of 30 and it would be on this document.

    NSW Baptism Transcription
    (Early Church Records) Ref: Vol 127 No. 320

    Register – St. Mary’s Cathedral Roman Catholic
    Baptisms 1823
    Name – Joseph Love
    Date of Birth- Not Stated
    Date of Baptism – 22/4/1823
    Father – Not Stated
    Occupation –
    Mother – Not Stated
    Residence –
    Sponsor –
    Minister –
    Notes – Received into the Church

    The following was added by the transcription agent

    “Joseph Love was probably born before the new Colony had time to build the stone church of St. Phillips Sydney Cove”

    The other possibility as you suggest is Joseph Love b.1829 to Joseph and Mary Ann was Joseph Lester.

    This may also remain just another Love mystery.

    cheers
    Lesley:)

  26. we are related to John Love through son Joseph Lester Love B.1793, then his son Robert Love B. 1824, then his son Joseph James Love B. 1853, then his daughter Eileen Mary Love B. 1891 married George Jones 1911, then their Daughter Eileen Louisa Jones B. 1921 married Kenneth Kyrle Bailey 1946 and then my husband born 1962.

    I noticed that there isnt much info re: Robert Love, other than marrying Mary Brady 1846. Holy Trinity (Garrison Church) C of E, sydney.
    If there is anyone else realted to the same line love to hear from them.

  27. Hi Tania, lovely to hear from you. If you have some more information about Robert you would be willing to contribute that would be terrific. Otherwise more than happy to pass on any emails or contacts for you. James

  28. I am also related to John Love as Tania is ie.
    Joseph Lester
    Robert
    Joseph James
    Then she was connected to Joseph’s daughter Eileen1891, I am connected to Joseph’s son and Eileen’s brother William Thomas 1893 .
    William was my Grandfather.
    My father is his eldest son Terrence William 1922.

  29. Hello James, Such an interesting lot of data. I am descended (g.g.g. grand-daughter) from John & Martha Love, then Joseph Love and Mary Goodwin, then Charles Steptoe L. and Mary Ann (Baker)?, then Percy John L. and Margaret Carmody, and Kenneth L. & Helen Stewart. I know all the grandchildren of Percy & Margaret. We first received information about our original Love family from a South Australian researcher in the 1980’s. More recently, the net has made it possible to follow many original, authentic records. The reference library at Eastwood, and the Parramatta Heritage Centre have a good supply of records, including at the latter, copies of folios citing all the land transactions (Dept of Lands). If my memory serves me well, the land at The Ponds was sold to Gregory Blaxland, nephew of The ‘Blaxland’ Lawson & Wentworth fame. William Cox who built the first road across the Blue Mountains also gets a mention. All the records of land transactions involving John Love were able to be viewed at The Heritage Centre, Parramatta. There is a Notice erected by Parramatta Council in Dundas Valley near the Rugby Club where John Love is listed as an original land holder (30 acres), and overlaid on the original land grants survey is the present subdivision. Because Eastwood historical records are quite comprehensive, the succession of ownership of the 90 acres on which Eastwood CBD is now situated is well documented. There is still a Brand Street, and a Cox’s Road in Dundas Valley. I was looking into data about Australia’s first author, James Tucker, when I stumbled into my own Love family history in Australia. James Tucker’s book, Ralph Rashleigh, gives a pretty good insight into what life was like in the early days of the colony of New South Wales. Great web-site. Best wishes. June.

  30. Correction – Charles Steptoe L. married Mary Ann KAY – not Baker. Apologies. June

  31. June – thank you so much for the information. I’m very curious about the plaque and would love to make a trip to take a photograph to add to the website. So that I’m not wandering around a paddock in the middle of nowhere, do you know exactly where it is? I’m also curious to make a trip to the Parramatta Heritage Centre. It sounds like a trip worth doing. James

  32. Just saying Thanks for sharing this interesting information. I found you site when googling Joseph Lester Love – his name seemed familiar to me when I was adding to my ‘extended’ family, he’s not a direct ancestor but his first daughter ~
    Martha Mulvena Love m Thomas George Gill
    Annie Elizabeth Gill m William McLaughlin
    Alexander Moore McLaughlin m Gertrude Edith Martha Grant* (d/o Gregory Grant & Mary Louisa Sadlier) Mary Louisa being my g-g grandmother’s sister.
    (*As far as I can tell there were no children from this marriage.)
    Karen

  33. My Grandmother was Edith May LOVE 7 April 1879-26 April 1962 who married Herbert GRAY. My father was their son Goeffrey John GRAY.
    Edith’s parents were Joseph LOVE 18 May 1853-8 Jan 1907 who married Esther Julia DUVALL 1855-25 Nov 1946.
    Jospeh’s parents were Robert LOVE 15 Aug 1824-20 Oct 1875 & Mary BRADY 1825-1828 Co Cavan, Ireland – 27 Sep 1873.
    Robert’s parents were Joseph LOVE 1792-1836 & Mary Ann GOODWIN 28 Jan 1803-13 June 1878.
    Joseph’s parents were John LOVE 1732-1827 & Martha 1748-28 Nov 1822.

    My aunt & I have done much research on our lines and would love to hear of relatives to add to our families.
    Pauline Rice, nee Gray, Bowral, NSW.

  34. If Tania would like to get in touch with me, I have information of Robert LOVE & Mary BRADY’s line.
    Great site James. I was told of your site by another LOVE from the south coast. Glad other’s are having problems getting back to England with John & Martha.
    Many researches feel Elizabeth was born in Australia because of the census but I feel we will find her baptism one day in England, around Berkshire/Hamshire, not forgetting the millitary were training in those counties. Pauline

  35. Pauline, lovely to hear from you. I’ve passed your message on to Tania and more than happy to pass anything else which comes through. James

  36. We can discount the captain of the Royal George being Martha’s husband. When the ship sank in 1782 Martin Waghorn was the captain not Richard Searl. So that blows that theory & part of the family story away. Perhaps Richard Searl was a crew member & this family story has been highly exaggerated over the years. A crew list is needed to confirm any Searls aboard.

    Kerrie

  37. Hi again James,
    I was thinking do you want a CD of what we have on the Love family from John & Martha till now, noting many are still alive and really should not be put online. I have nearly 100 pages so much easier to put on CD. Could you email me your address if you would like a copy. I do not mind any of our Love information going online provided they are deceased. It may lead to more people coming out of the woodwork.
    Regards Pauline Rice, Bowral, NSW.

  38. Hi Kerry (again!0
    After seeing Kerrie Beer’s message, I went through notes my aunt gave me on Martha. She told me “Descendants of the O’Keefe family told her that Martha MAY OF BEEN a daughter of Admiral Kempenfelt who went down with the Royal George in a disaster at Spithead. My Aunt checked “Shipping Wonders of The World” and found Admiral Kempenfelt was one of several famous Admirals and went down with her at Spithead.”
    The Rixon family also gave the same story !! Just thought it may be worth a mention of what we also heard !! Maybe we will never know. Maybe Admiral Kempenfelt was a passenger, not crew? Regards Pauline Rice.

  39. James,
    I was “googling” tonight
    From “Naval & Military Memoirs of Great Britain from 1727-1783”
    Royal George: Richard Kempenfelt, Efq, Rear Admiral of the Blue AND Captain M Waghorne onboard.
    Pauline Rice

  40. James,
    I went through my research over the weekend as you can see by all my comments (interruptions for you) and found where the JOSEPH LESTER LOVE came from. It is only written (as far as I have found) on Martha Melvina GILL’s death certificate Registered Queensland C4372(written on register as Martha MULVENA Gill) I Really think it is just plain JOSEPH LOVE. Maybe Lester was a nickname ? Regards Pauline. PS Hope you don’t mind my interruptions?

  41. Hey Pauline, thanks for your posts. Sorry, I’ve been a little distracted over the last few days in locking in tickets, accommodation etc for my trip. It’s hard work planning a holiday! :) And with work on top of that… roll on July 4!! This stuff about Martha is so difficult. Like you say, maybe we’ll never know. Anyway, hope you’re well, and let’s hope someone else ‘googling” who knows the answer might come across this site and add something to the debate. James

  42. Hi everyone ,
    Just checking in to see progress.Still trying to meet someone on my line from Eva Stuart Rixon/Norman Benson back to James Rixon and Elizabeth Hoare and then of course John and Martha.
    Keep up the good work on your site.

  43. James

    What a wonderful site. I am not sure if you can help me but my enquiry is: Mr grandmother was Edna Hope Williams daughter of Charles John Williams (b 1865 Bong Bong – known as John) and Emily Louisa Whitaker, CJ Williams son of Charles Williams and Mary Ann Jane Love – daughter of John Love and Ellen Carey (nee Sullivan) and son of Joseph Love and Mary Ann Goodwin. Do you have any information to pass on in regard to my ancestors? As some of the other wesbites are incorrect.
    Many thanks Gemma.

  44. Hi Gemma, thanks for your comment about the site.
    Can I apologise first in advance for a tardy replay. I’m just about to catch a plane for an extended overseas holiday.If someone else can help with information, please post. Sorry Gemma, I hope you understand. James

  45. Hi Gemma

    Seems our grgrgrandmothers were sisters, mine was Lucy Ann Love,(sister of Mary Ann Love) another daughter of John Love and Ellen Carey, Lucy was born in Eden and married Morgan Joseph Thornton in Lochiel. Some of my information is already on this site, however, if you would like a register from my files please contact me on lezleyf@hotmail.com
    regards Lesley

    Enjoy the holiday James!

  46. Hi James 20th July 2008
    John & Martha are my 4th Greats. Hi to all my ‘cousins’. My line is through Joseph who was blind-to Martha Malvinia Matilda who married George Thomas Gill-to Dau. Eleanor (Ellen) who married Thomas O’Connor Tyrrell -to son George Tyrrell etc. The above photo of reunion was held at my place in Bundaberg in 1991 (200 years) from first arrival. Possibily the first one, but didn’t know there were so many cousins out there then or you would have been invited!! All the above material is quite interesting as pieces fit together but still needs refining I guess. Thanks for the contributions. Beverley Grove. Bundaberg. Qld.
    e-mail maxley@buzzbb.net

  47. Greetings relatives !

    Wow – I’m on information overload … thank you all!

    I’d like to share my own line – for anyone who would like the information. I’m descended through Joseph down the male line to my mother :

    Joseph Love b 1793 m 1818 Mary Goodwin b 1803
    Robert Love b 1824 m 1846 Mary Brady
    Thomas Love b 1849 m 1873 Sarah Ann Earle
    Thomas McGregor Love b 1878 m 1905 Lousia Beatrice Bridges b 1887
    George McGregor Love b 1908 m Dorothy May Cole b 1909
    Dorothy Allison Love b 1939 m 1965 Leonard Eldon Kingston-Kerr b 1940
    Me b 1965

    I’d love to hear from anyone who can share records of any part of this line – sensett@tadaust.org.au

    Regards,

    Joanne

  48. Beverley and Joanne – great to hear from you. I’m glad the site’s useful and hope it might help with your own research. James

  49. Hi James,
    Your site is great, it is has given a venue for people to share their family history information, it is certainly popular. I have been off line for a while till now due to family illness. After getting back on to your site, I was pleased to see postings from Pauline. Her Grandmother Edith May and my Grandfather William Thomas were brother and sister. Maybe you could let her know I am interested in information about Robert and why or when he went to Bega.
    Also I have been trying to find out information about
    Esther Julia Duval my grandfathers mother. I have tried to find out about her and her parents. Some information I found was that she was born in Grafton but have come to a dead end. I have that her father was Thomas Duval and her mother was Mary Ryan. I am not sure where I got this information so I don’t know if it is correct. My sister Julie was said to be named after her as William and Adala were living with her when my Dad was born at Double Bay. I was 4 months old when she died. I would be very grateful for any information. Joy

  50. Hello Joy, lovely to hear from you. And I’ve passed on your details to Pauline, so hopefully you’ll be able to make some furhter progress there too. James

  51. Hi James,
    Thank you for forwarding my details on to Pauline. She has been in touch with me and has been able to give me a lot of great information about our branch of the family. I have passed on details to her, about my immediate family so she could fill in the gaps.
    Joy

  52. Hi James,
    I am sure you had a contact requesting pics on old pubs. A recent crash – I’ve lost the address, do you have? I’ve searched your records and can’t find the original email. I have pics to send.
    Judy Richards

  53. Good evening James

    Thought I might approach the notion of finding out something more about the origins of John Love as no one to my knowledge has managed to trace his birth/history etc. As a member of the NSW Corps he must have been associated with Lts William Paterson and Francis Grose. So, as I admire and enjoy the Australian Biographical Dictionary, I thought it may be interesting to have a look. Below are the two links – you may also enjoy some quite light reading.

    http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A010444b.htm

    http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020284b.htm

    My father (g g grandson of John Love) had said he’d been told that John Love was from Scotland. It occurred to me that Paterson was most likely Scottish. I was hoping to find out which regiments Paterson was associated with, and possibly follow up something from there. The bio’s were thus full of possibility. I would be the slowest “researcher” on the planet (don’t hold your breath) – but maybe some day another portal will lead me to come up with some info, and shine some light on the mystery. This was more or less just for your info.

    Best wishes and Happy New Year
    June

    1. Thanks June for the suggestions. Hopefully this might help either rule in or rule out some of the theories. The great thing about family history is it never ends. We can never hope to know the complete story!

  54. Interesting that you too can only get back to around 1800 in Ireland. I’m having the same challenge. Scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours… what resources have worked best for you?

    I run an O’Brien website and our genealogy section features ongoing searches. If we can help you track down some details, let me know http://www.obrienstore.com/genealogy/

    1. Hi Paul, the best sources of research for me have been 1/… other researchers (the power of the collective) 2/… newspapers have been good fleshing out some of the stories via death notices, articles etc and 3/… putting the information online. Putting everything up here has helped in two ways. First, it’s helped me organise the information in terms of a narrative, rather than just being on bits and pieces of paper. Second, it’s got the information out there to other people who have either corrected to it, added to it, or helped others in their own searches. James

  55. Hi James

    Glad you found the newspapers at NLA. Are you referring to the ‘Beta’ Project? I have been copying links to the UK National Archives, mainly from the War Office (WO Series). One can order the documents, it would appear. I’ve also been downloading Grace Karskens work from University of Sydney website, as I feel sure some oddities may be cleared up. eg Referenced Sydney Gazette about that property at The Rocks. Now to find the particular Sydney Gazette. Would you like me to send you the UK National Archives ‘Links’? – through this medium? or by separate email?

    Cheers
    June

    1. Hi June, yes that’s the one. It’s terrific that it’s searchable and that you can actually see the items without having to squint under the light of a microfiche reader. If you have some links to add, please do so here, as it would be great to share them around. James

  56. Hello James,
    Below are “Quick Look-Up” Copy & Paste Search Results of UK National Archives. Search criteria I have not listed, but picking up each word of the results may provide a clue. Names, Musters, Pay Lists, Regiment Numbers, Places (incl India). I’m ignoring William Paterson, for now, but the Grose connection provides much keener interest. I think the Archibald Morrison could be the same person who was granted land at the same time as John Love. Records of the Pay Office may give leads as to whether the soldier (payee) was single, married, had children. Discharge papers sometimes have year/place of birth. A number of discharges for ‘John Love’ listed, incl a number of different regiments. [Probably more than one ‘John Love’]. Note all the persons joining up with NSW Corps were of senior years, and had probably served in Army Units previously. For details: Maybe a reader’s ticket would help? Am wrestling with my (different) software with regards to copious ‘links’. Enjoy below:
    COPY & PASTE ITEMS FROM UK NATIONAL ARCHIVES
    JOHN LOWE alias JOHN LOVE
    Born Angus
    Served in 55th Foot Regiment
    Discharged aged 47
    Covering date gives year of discharge.
    Covering dates
    1775

    JOHN LOVE
    Born [Not Known]
    Served in 38th Foot Regiment; 70th Foot Regiment; 128th Foot Regiment
    Discharged aged 54 after 30 years 8 months of service
    Residence or place where pension paid stated in document.

    ENGLAND AND WALES, ARMY AND NAVY: War Office: Lord Barrington, enclosing memorial of Capt. William Popham, paymaster of late 79th Regt. for reimbursement of expenses incurred on behalf of regiment in India, with a letter to Lord Barrington thereon from William Draper, 21 July 1766

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 17  Office of the Commander in Chief: Monthly Returns to the Adjutant General
    Subseries within WO 17  RETURNS, TO 1813
    Subsubseries within WO 17  INFANTRY: REGIMENTS OF FOOT
    102 Foot:
    1761 Sept to 1762 Feb: Queen’s Royal Volunteers [102nd Foot], commanded by Major David Wedderburn; at Watford and Plymouth.
    1781 Nov to Dec: 102nd Regiment of Foot, commanded by Major General William Rowley; at Chatham.
    1794 July to Aug: Irish Rangers Regiment of Infantry [102nd Foot], commanded by Lt Col Eyre Power Trench; on board ship, and at Salisbury.
    1809 Dec to 1812 Dec: 102nd Regiment of Foot; colonel: Francis Grose; includes musters from New South Wales and at sea for passage to England (1810), at barracks in England (1810-1811), in Guernsey (1811-1812), at Winchester and in Bermuda (1812).

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of the Royal Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals 
    WO 97  Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents
    Subseries within WO 97  1760-1854: discharge papers arranged by regiment, but each described at item level. (WO 97/1-1271)
     
    WO 97/1140B  Veterans Miscellaneous
    ARCHIBALD MORRISON
    Born INVERNESS, Inverness-shire
    Served in 42nd Foot Regiment; 73rd Foot Regiment; New South Wales Veterans; 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion
    Discharged aged 52
    Covering dates
    1778-1809

    JOHN HOARE Born LOSTWITH HALL, Cornwall Served in 1st Foot Regiment; Royal New South Wales Veterans; 102nd Foot Regiment; 30th Foot Regiment; 55th Foot Regiment; 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion Discharged aged 63

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 12  Commissary General of Musters Office and successors: General Muster Books and Pay Lists
    Subseries within WO 12  COLONIAL CORPS
    Subsubseries within WO 12  New South Wales Corps
    Scope and content
    New South Wales Corps (afterwards 102nd Foot)
    Covering dates
    1789 – 1796

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 12  Commissary General of Musters Office and successors: General Muster Books and Pay Lists
    Subseries within WO 12  COLONIAL CORPS
    Title
    New South Wales Corps
    Covering dates
    1789-1796

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  General records of the War Office and predecessors and successor
    WO 4  War Office: Secretary-at-War, Out-letters
    Subseries within WO 4  NEW SOUTH WALES CORPS.
    Scope and content
    New South Wales Corps
    Covering dates
    1789-1803.

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of the Royal Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals 
    WO 97  Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents
    Subseries within WO 97  1760-1854: discharge papers arranged by regiment, but each described at item level. (WO 97/1-1271)
     
    WO 97/1141  Colonial Veterans: ABE – WOO
    Scope and content
    JAMES CONWAY
    Born CORK, Cork
    Served in New South Wales Corps
    Discharged aged 54
    Covering dates
    1789-1810

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 17  Office of the Commander in Chief: Monthly Returns to the Adjutant General
    Subseries within WO 17  RETURNS, TO 1813
    Subsubseries within WO 17  COLONIAL, FENCIBLES AND OTHERS
    Scope and content
    New South Wales Corps.
    Covering dates
    1790-1809.

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 17  Office of the Commander in Chief: Monthly Returns to the Adjutant General
    Subseries within WO 17  NEW SOUTH WALES.
    Scope and content
    New South Wales.
    Covering dates
    1791-1792

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 12  Commissary General of Musters Office and successors: General Muster Books and Pay Lists
    Subseries within WO 12  INFANTRY
    Subsubseries within WO 12  102nd Foot
    Scope and content
    (102nd Regiment of Foot, raised in 1798 as the new South Wales Corps; disbanded in 1818 as the 100th Foot)
    Covering dates
    1798 – 1799

    WO  Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
    Division within WO  Records of other administrative departments of the War Office 
    WO 12  Commissary General of Musters Office and successors: General Muster Books and Pay Lists
    Subseries within WO 12  INFANTRY
    Subsubseries within WO 12  102nd Foot
    Scope and content
    (102nd Regiment of Foot, raised in 1798 as the new South Wales Corps; disbanded in 1818 as the 100th Foot)
    Covering dates
    1800 – 1801

    HO  Records created or inherited by the Home Office, Ministry of Home Security, and related bodies
    Division within HO  Criminal Department
    Title
    Home Office: Settlers and Convicts, New South Wales and Tasmania: Records
    Covering dates
    1787-1859

    HO  Records created or inherited by the Home Office, Ministry of Home Security, and related bodies
    Division within HO  Criminal Department 
    HO 11  Home Office: Convict Transportation Registers
    HO 11/1  Convicts transported (Described at item level)
    Scope and content
    Pages 71-151: Transportation register of convicts bound for New South Wales on the convict ships Active, Albemarle, Atlantic, Barrington, Britannia, Mary Ann, Matilda, Salamander and William and Ann.
    Covering dates
    1791 January

    T  Records created and inherited by HM Treasury
    Division within T  Treasury: Minutes, Entry-books and correspondence pre 1920
    T 46  Treasury: Victualling Lists
    Scope and content
    Teneriffe, Rio. Cape of Good Hope (garrison for New South Wales)
    Covering dates
    1787
    T  Records created and inherited by HM Treasury
    Division within T  Treasury: Minutes, Entry-books and correspondence pre 1920
    T 1  Treasury: Treasury Board Papers and In-Letters
    Subseries within T 1  Unregistered Papers
    T 1/726  
    Scope and content
    AUSTRALIA (New South Wales colony): State of the settlements at Sydney, Paramatta and Norfolk Island, list of soldiers and artificers employed, and sundry expenses
    Covering dates
    1793 July-Oct

    ADM  Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
    Division within ADM  Records of the Navy Board and the Board of Admiralty
    ADM 1  Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers
    Subseries within ADM 1  ORIGINAL SERIES (1st group): 1660-1839
    Title
    MARINE OFFICERS
    Covering dates
    1787-1839

    CO  Records of the Colonial Office, Commonwealth and Foreign and Commonwealth Offices, Empire Marketing Board, and related bodies
    Division within CO  Records of the Chief Clerk’s and General Departments
    CO 700  Colonial Office and predecessors: Maps and Plans: Series I
    Subseries within CO 700  NEW SOUTH WALES
    Scope and content
    Plan of the Allotments of Ground granted from the Crown in New South Wales. By Augustus Alt, Land Surv. Genl [Sydney]. [With a list of the Settlers and the number of acres granted to each.] MS. About 1¼ miles to 1 inch.
    Covering dates
    [1790 ?]

    EXT  Documents and objects extracted from various record series
    EXT 1  Large documents extracted from various record series held at the Public Record Office, Kew, before 1997
    EXT 1/245  10 items (15 sheets) extracted from BT 1/13.
    Scope and content
    Return of lands granted in New South Wales.
    Covering dates
    1793-1794

    BT  Records of the Board of Trade and of successor and related bodies
    Division within BT  Central administrative records
    BT 6  Board of Trade: Miscellanea
    Scope and content
    New South Wales.
    Covering dates
    1792-1806

    KAY Mary Ann Miss
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    1269
    KAY C Mr, Mrs
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    1269
    Initial, & Mrs E from SMH
    KAY Chas Master
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    1269
    KAY E Mrs
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    SMH
    Mr & Mrs in SR list
    KAY Eliza Miss
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    SMH
    KAY Emma Miss
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    1269
    KAY Mary Ann Miss
    Duchess of Kent
    P
    22/3/1842
    London, Cape of Good Hope
    1269

    Last name
    LOVE
    First name
    John
    Rank
    Private
    Regiment
    Colonel F. Grose’s Company, NSW Corps
    Pay List/Muster Roll
    1798 Pay List
    PRO Reel/Source
    412
    Notes
    Discharged 1798

    Last name
    LOVE
    First name
    John
    Rank
    Private
    Regiment
    HM NSW Corps
    Pay List/Muster Roll
    1789 Muster Roll
    PRO Reel/Source
    HRNSW, Vol 2, pp.432-435

    Regiments of certain interest 102 Foot, and 55 Foot (which was in India). Also found records of 55 Foot on India-based website. (Immigration KAY family on ‘Duchess of Kent’ may pertain to my line).
    Have also been finding out about my female line (from East Knoyle, Wiltshire, came to Queensland 1864). James – Please edit at will.

    Cheers
    June

  57. Hi James
    Could you put me in touch with Pauline Rice.
    We are trying to put together a document with as complete a listing as possible of the descendants of Joseph Love (1793-1836). Hoping to have another Love reunion in 2010.
    We are descendants of Martha Malvinia Matilda Love and are happy to share any information we have.
    Thanks
    Lyle & Margaret Cooper

  58. Hi James, ( & Pauline Rice ) ..
    I am wondering if Pauline Rice belongs to the RICE family who went to Bowral in the mid 1800s ? If so would she be able to contact me please ? .. thanks James .. Maree in Hobart

  59. Was wondering if had Penny Love, she was a Bundy high student around 1985, think parents were milkos in town, also think you had link to Lovedays at your reunion.

    Penny Loveday

  60. Seems I got your website James. Sorry. Don’t worry yourself as I will email Margaret Cooper direct. Pauline Rice.

  61. hi everyone,iam decended from jhoare/eliz love,martha/john robinson,sarah/harry fyfe,ophyr/arthur silvester,&ME edward/cheryl jones would have loved to have got to reunion great reading .Ted

  62. Hi James,
    I thought I would add further research (and puzzles) in trying to find John & Martha LOVE.

    Re Martha MERRIMAN who married John LUFF 2 Aug 1768 at St Peters Marlborough, Wiltshire, England. LDS (Mormon’s) Film: 1526707 items 1-8.
    They had 4 children:
    Joseph LOVE Baptsied 12 Oct 1769
    Elizabeth LOVE Baptised 4 April 1772
    James LOVE Baptised 16 Feb 1775
    Susanna LUFF Baptised 19 Nov 1777 all four at St Peters Marlborough, Wiltshire, England LDS Film: 1526707.
    NOTE: Elizabeth too old & other children not found in Australia.
    Marlborough is 40 miles approx. to Southampton & 50 miles to Portsmouth (Spithead) HAMPSHIRE.

    There is also John LOVE married 16 Dec 1777 Martha POPE at Bishops Cannings (now called All Cannings), Wiltshire, England. LDS Film: 1279396.
    I researched this film many years ago & their many children were Baptised in the village of Rowde, Wiltshire about 2 miles from All cannings BUT they were having children Baptised there AFTER 1791 (The sailing of the Matilda) Another DEAD END.

    Out of interest I tried Martha STEPTOE………..(note Steptoe used as a middle named much later) There is a Martha STEPTOE born 23 Jan 1747 & Christened 24 Jan 1747 Wantage, Berkshire, England. Parents Thomas Steptoe & Elizabeth SHEPHERD. (Married 25 May 1740 Wantage, Berkshire) both LDS Film: 0088469. They had 10 children including Martha (note 1747) between 1740-1761 all Baptised in Wantage, Berkshire, England. I CAN NOT FIND A MARRIAGE FOR A MARTHA STEPTOE TO FIT WITH JOHN LOVE/ SEARLE. BUT there is a marriage for Martha STEPTOE 3 Nov 1789 in Wantage, Berkshire to Richard SHEPHERD. So again a BRICK WALL.

    I also tried Martha LESTER/LISTER without sucess.

    LASTLY: There is a John SEARLE married Martha PHILIP on 17 Oct 1779 Eversley, Hampshire, England. LDS Film: 496685 item 6. I can not find any children born to them. (We need an Elizabeth or do we, maybe she WAS born in NSW or maybe onboard “Matilda” !!!!????)
    There are 4 children born to a John & Martha SERLE in Devon but 2 are born before 1779 (the Hampshire marriage) can not be theirs. So it appears the John SEARLE & Martha PHILIP marrying in Eversley, Hampshire, may not of had children. ? Again another BRICK WALL.
    There are so many Martha PHILIP/PHILLIPS births around 1748 it would be difficult to sort out.

    So again back to square one. If I could find out if the military used a certain church in the Portsmouth/Southport, Hampshire areas it maybe worth a look.

    I think they are out there somewhere. Lots of digging needed.

    Thanks James for many messages passed on to me.
    Kind Regards, Pauline Rice, Bowral, NSW.

    1. Thanks for this Pauline. It’s great information. Maybe someone else has some info which can help solve this problem? I’m confident the collective brains trust will eventually get us there.

  63. Hi James & Pauline

    Thanks for your message from Ragna, sorry to leave you hanging til now, with help from Lyle Cooper & info from Pauline Rice, I managed to find Lyall Gregory in time for Ragnar’s visit to Sydney,that should be an interesting meeting. I also asked Lyall about original sourcing regarding Martha’s maiden name being Searle, it appear’s that it may have been a stab in the dark on the IGI’s many years ago, rather than actual documentation stating that her name was Searle, I will get more clarification from him by post, as he dosen’t have phone or internet connection questions & answers will come via snail mail, this may take some time.

    Reading Paulines last post, I decided to do a search for military marriages & births, found a forum suggesting to check chaplins returns 1760-1971 & Regimental registers 1790-1924, as men in the military had to have permission from their commanding officer to marry, there would be a record of the event, even if it occured in a parish church & not by an Army chaplin, as well as any dependants in regimental registers, we need to know which regiment he was in at that time to search register. Chaplins returns can be searched by name, but they are mainly for overseas births, deaths or marriages, if Elizabeth was born here or on the Matilda she might be on the chaplins returns. I tried to find a searchable index, and found find my past has chaplins returns, but its a pay per view membership deal, maybe if anyone out there has membership to this site they could do a search in the militay section.

    I also did a check on ancestry for musters & census, found musters 1822 HO 10/36 Elizabeth states born in colony, 1825 HO 10/19 Elizabeth born in colony, census 1828 HO 10/23 born in colony, I have found in the past that info on the 1828 census is not really reliable when it comes to free con’s & settlers birth details, as I have a few people I know for a fact were born over seas, on 1828 census they say they were born here, i’m not sure about how reliable the info is on the musters. If you want me to send you images let me know.

    kindest regards & thanks again to Pauline, Lyle Cooper & youself.

    Annette West

  64. Hi James

    Very interesting site with all the usual headaches lol.

    Although not related we have a connection , The Matilda, my Great grandfather x7 james o’connor was a crew member and was shipwrecked on it in 1792 after it left Australia,

    All info about the matilda’s crew and pasengers is still a mystery except for those who were shipwrecked.

    As for my Ggf x7 I have no idea when or where he was born and have to date no info in relation to the matildas passenger or crew list , still banging my head against the wall lol

    keep up the good work

    Regards William Bates

  65. Hello all.

    I got some messages from some really lovely ladies from here back in November/December last year. Unfortunately I had a massive PC loss (total and utter leading to a new PC some 10 months later, finally!) and lost all the information and emails I’d been sent. My appologies to anyone I didn’t respond to – it wasn’t intentional.
    Im back online now – and if anyone would like to contact me, or share information, my email address is :
    sensett@tadaust.org.au

    Part of my original message was:
    I’m descended through Joseph down the male line to my mother :
    Joseph Love b 1793 m 1818 Mary Goodwin b 1803
    Robert Love b 1824 m 1846 Mary Brady
    Thomas Love b 1849 m 1873 Sarah Ann Earle
    Thomas McGregor Love b 1878 m 1905 Lousia Beatrice Bridges b 1887
    George McGregor Love b 1908 m Dorothy May Cole b 1909
    Dorothy Allison Love b 1939 m 1965 Leonard Eldon Kingston-Kerr b 1940
    Me b 1965

    I’d love to hear from anyone who can share records of any part of this line

    Thanks so much :-)

    1. Joanne, I have tried to contact you via email but as this post is 6 years old possibly you have dropped out of the discussion or have a new email. I am following a William Love son of Robert Love, but possibly not the same Robert Love as everyone else. Please see my last post.

  66. Joanne,
    Would you like to contribute your line of the family to the Monaro Pioneers website. The entry below is all they have on your Robert Love:

    M iii. Robert Love was born on August 15, 1824 in Sydney, NSW34 and died in 1875 in Eden, NSW35 at age 51.

    Robert married Mary Brady in 1846 in Garrison Church, Sydney, NSW.36

    It would be nice to see it extended on the Pioneers listing. James has a link to their website on his site, however, it is
    http://www.monaropioneers.com/pioneers.htm
    with James’ kind permission. Also, The web manager will acknowledge your contribution.
    I am descended from a younger brother ‘Charles Steptoe’ (my great grandfather).
    Cheers
    June.

    1. My husband decends from
      M iii. Robert Love was born on August 15, 1824 in Sydney, NSW34 and died in 1875 in Eden, NSW35 at age 51.

      robert & mary had a son “Joseph James Love” b.1853 who later married “Esther Julia Duvall” 1876

      They had a daughter “Eileen Mary Love” b.1891 who married “George Jones” in 1911.

      Their daughter “Eileen Louisa Jones” b.1921 is my husbands mother.

    2. Hello June, I know this post is 6 years old but if you are still watching here goes. I am researching a Robert Love who sounds the same in all respects but couldn’t have died in Eden in 1875. Mine had a son William born in Millers Point who went on to live in and around the harbour until 1885. William and his children also lived in Millers Point up to 1912. Any thoughts?

  67. Hi James
    I note that Pauline Rice says she tried to contact us without success.
    Would you mind giving her our email address again.
    Thanks
    Lyle Cooper

  68. Hi James

    Tried to comment before. Martha Hoare is my fifth great aunt, her husband John Robinson is my ancestor’s brother. John Robinson’s sister, Mary Robinson married John Waite (m 1812). She was the mother of Thomas Waite, who married Johanna O’Shaunnessy. They were the parents of John David Waite, who married Florence Emma Alywin (m 1890). Their daughter Dorothy Waite, married James William Brewer (son of Charles William Brewer and Charlotte Ann Whittaker). James William Brewer and Dorothy Waite are my great grandparents on my father’s side.

    I have a geni.com family tree, which I am very new at, so I don’t know how to link it. Contact me if you would like any information, but my information for this far back is from mostly the Monaro site and your own. Thank you very much for your very detailed information.

    1. Hi Rebecca. Good to hear from you. You should be able to comment now without any problems. I’ve put an “Approve” function on the site for first time posters to avoid spam and all of those other bad things that can sometimes occur on the internet. If you just copy the address and paste it into the comment box, it will automatically create a link here to your geni site. Cheers, James

  69. Hi James
    The Love Reunion planned for August 2010 has had to be rescheduled to Saturday 30 April 2011.
    More information and registration form later in the year.
    Thanks
    Lyle Cooper

  70. Hi James – That”‘geni” link brought up on my screen the biggest No-No from my Optusnet Security thing-o that I have ever seen – “Harmful website” et al – – –

    Maybe you could check.
    Cheers
    June

    1. Hello June, I just tried it then and didn’t get a security warning at all. I get the page and it says it’s a private family tree. Maybe that’s what set off the security alarm? Sometimes those security things can be overly sensitive. Still, if it causes concern, I wouldn’t click on it. James

  71. Hi James,
    You have a fantastic website for all of us family history enthusiasts. I’m also related to John Love and Martha Searl, through then to Elizabeth and John Hoare, then Sarah Hoare and James Seymour who are my gg grandparents. My connections are mainly the Seymour and the Waites and I’ve been in contact with Terry Hore, in particular, about the Seymour side of the family. I’m hoping through your site that I can link up with some people from the Waite side. I am descended from both the William Waite and John Waite (convict) families (from Sutton Forest) as their respective children, William Waite married Matilda Waite and one of their daughters, Elizabeth Ann Waite is my great grandmother.
    Please contact me if you are also connected. I’d appreciate some conversation on the family.
    You can email me on dh2quickstep@yahoo.com
    Thanks again for the website. Denise

  72. Hello James, I hadn’t looked at this section before due to not being connected to the LOVES. Just glancing now, I see the Matilda Connection. The first of our line of Sanders that we know of was Thomas Sa(u)nders who came as convict on the Matilda in 1791 and later settled at Appin. There is talk of my direct gggrandparents going to him before moving North with Verge of Austral Eden. I have a map of Thomas’ land in my files. Must look it up. Yrs Lynne.

  73. Hi James
    Would you mind sending me your email address so that I can send you the details on the Love Family Reunion to be held in Rockhampton (floods permitting!) on 30/4/2011.

    We would be very grateful if you could add it to your web site please.
    Thanks
    Lyle and Margaret Cooper

  74. Hi I am Robert Silvester son of Ophyr Fyfe daughter of Sarah Robinson daughter of charles
    Robinson. ( Married to Harry Fyfe)
    Charles Robinson son of John Robinson and
    Sarah Rixon.
    John Robinson son of John Robinson and Martha
    Hoare.
    Martha Hoare Daughter of John Hoare and Martha love.
    Martha love daughter of John Love and Elezabeth Love.
    John Love being son of John and Martha Love

    Trying to arrange to go to Rockhamton to find out more Regards
    Robert and Margaret Silvester

  75. Hi James, I have found your pages very interesting to read and i will be deffinatley be purchasing a book. I am a decedant of Elizabeth and John Hoare. I have listed my connetion below.
    1 Elizabeth Love and John Hoare
    2 Martha Hoare and John Robinson
    3. Mary Maria Robinson and Thomas Brown Collins
    4.Martha Collins and Reginald Woollett
    5. Harold Woollett and Florence Cecilia Rebecca Utz.
    6. Fay Woollett and Jack Greensill
    7. Alan Greensill and Elizabeth Snell
    8. Stacey Greensill (Me) and Luke Collins.
    9. Aiden and Brooklyn Collins (My Childdren)
    Hope this helps to see where i fit in.
    I would like to meet other people who may fit in with some of my lines and share information.
    Thanks.

    3 Mary Maria Robinson (My Great Great Great Grandmother)

    4. Martha Collins (My Great Great Grandmother

    5. Harold Woollett (My Great Grandfather)

    6. Fay Woollett (My Grandmother)

    7. Alan Greensill (My Father)

    8.Stacey Greensill (Me)

    9. Aiden and Brooklyn Collins (My Children)

  76. Hi James
    LOVE REUNION AND BOOK ON LOVE FAMILY LAUNCH
    There will be nearly 100 descendants of John and Martha Love attending the reunion in Rockhampton on 30 April.
    The book contains information on over 11,500 descendants and their families and is 600 pages.
    For further information contact: landmdcooper@hotmail.com
    Sorry you cannot be with us.
    Lyle and Margaret Cooper

  77. James, Thank you for thsi terrific website on John Love. He is also my ancestor through Eliabeth-Sarah Hoare-James Seymour-John Seymour-Agnes Sarah Seymour-Joseph Harold McBrien-Patricia Joy McBrien to me. I originally did some research in the bad old days before the web (30 years ago) and now so much more is available. You have done a magnificent job on this. Congratulations.
    Please keep me in touch with any developments or reunions.

    The Seymour-McBrien clan are settled in Albury, NSW having farmed in that are for many years. Thie ancestors are convists and farmers from early in the colony history.
    Thanks again
    Bernie McCarthy

  78. Hello James, I am a descendant of John Love from the Springsure branch of the family via “Granny Gill”.

    The question of Elizabeth Love may never be settled. I heard the story of Elizabeth being the daughter of Kempenfelt many years ago. More recently the Captain (or Midshipman) Searle story appeared and that might seem more likely at first but the numbers don’t make much sense.

    The claim that Elizabeth Love was born in Sydney in 1791 is consistent with musters, census and a record of her death and is probably correct.

    It’s possible that she was born in England just before the ship left for Sydney or on board, but any date of birth being consistent with the loss of the Royal George in 1782 is not possible since she would have been at least 8 years old on arrival in Sydney. There is no reason to think that is likely as she would have remembered the voyage and something of that memory would have been handed down.

    However some light or further confusion perhaps might be shed by the speculation that Martha had two daughters of the same given name. This was not at all unusual in former times, where the name of a deceased child was used again by the same parent(s) later.

    If Martha was born in 1748 or thereabouts, she would have been about 34 when the Royal George sank. It is entirely possible that she had a daughter who she called Elizabeth by a previous relationship with a seaman from that ship, possibly a Searle by name but possibly not one of the officers.

    She would also have been nearly 40 on marriage to John Love, very late to have children by the standards of the 18th (or any) century. However that didn’t seem to have stopped her.

    The “Matilda” was wrecked at Mururoa Atoll in 1792 and any passenger list aboard would most likely be lost. It is a possibility that the ship’s papers ended up in Tahiti depending on circumstances of the wreck or may have gone with the men who were picked up there. If they remained in Tahiti they were most unlikely to have survived.

  79. Hi James
    Don’t know whether you may have already come across the link below, which I enjoyed from today’s press:
    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/mountains-of-millions-out-of-a-molehill-20130215-2eis3.html .
    Mr Carlton’s take on the Rum Corps (and thus somewhat a connection to our John Love) is how I have always seen our Love family’s beginnings in Australia. No coloured spectacles and no (dis)illusions, but based on contemporary accounts of all life in the new colony. This week I also enjoyed the documentary detailing Kerry O’Brien’s dabbling into his own family history. I look forward to seeing more accounts of our early days, based on reliable facts, and less on unfounded “creative writing”.
    Best wishes to you James.
    Regards
    June

  80. Hi James, I am researching the Campbell family and I know that William Campbell married Mary Jane Elizabeth McGuire in 1856 at Raymond Terrace. I have been trying to find information about her parents who were said to be Thomas McGuire and Honora Kirby, but have hit a brick wall everywhere I go. I was then referred to a Ballina Pioneers site which leads me to wonder whether I am being mislead by the mother’s name and whether the Thomas McGuire and Maria Love are the parents of my Mary Jane ELizabeth McGuire, I may be totally on the wrong track so am wondering if you found any more information about the William married to Mary Jane McGuire.? My Mary Jane Elizaeth went on to have 18 childre. She was said (based on her marriage cert) to have been born in Morpeth NSW in approx 1839

    1. Dear Ms Cook

      It seems unlikely that Mary Jane Elizabeth McGuire is a descendant of Mary Maria Love

      Mary Maria Love was born at Sydney Cove on 8 December 1799 and died at Sydney on .29 January 1853.
      She had 15 children –

      John Love – father unknown born 1816 died 1824
      Thomas Love (McGuire) born 1818, father possibly Thomas McGuire.fate unknown

      On 6 July 1819 Thomas McGuire obtained a licence to marry her at St. Luke’s Liverpool.
      Further children were
      Margaret born 6 January 1819, married George French on 1 January 1838, dies 1897, two children – Henry born 1838 and Mary Ann born 1841. They lived in the Northern Rivers districts of NSW
      Joseph John (1822 – 1885)
      Martha born 1825 – unknown
      Andrew (1826 – 1892)
      Richard (1828 – unknown)
      Ellen (21 September 1828 – 1916) married Isaac Roddam on 26 August 1845. 11 Children
      Peter (1830 – unknown)

      Thomas McGuire died in 1831. Mary Maria then took up with George Morris, it is not known whether they married. They had six children,
      William (1832 – 1893)
      Catherine (1833 – unknown)
      George (1835 – 1835)
      Sarah (1837- unknown)
      George (1840- unknown)
      Charles (1845 – unknown)

      Extracted from “A Family Began with Love” by Margaret Cooper, pages 494 and following. ISBN 978-0-646-54721-3

      The only Kirby in the book is Beryl Maud Kirby who married Allan Morgan Mainwaring 1935, he was the son of Grace Victoria M. Roddam, daughter of Thomas Roddam who was in turn the son of Ellen McGuire,

      Ken

  81. Hi James

    Kudos to you for the great research you have carried out and shared. All very helpful and appreciated.

    John and Martha Love were my grt (6) grandparents with my line coming from their daughter Mary Maria Love (McGuire)

    With your help the lives and times of my ancestors just became a little more colourful!

    Rgds
    Jay

  82. Hi James, what a great website!!
    I’ve been trying to trace my family for many years, in particular Robert Anthony ‘Jimmy’ Love.

    To start, my research shows my lineage appears to go John Love (Great Great Great Great -Grandfather)- Joseph Love (GGG-GF) – Robert Love (GG-GF)- William Love (G-GF) – Robert Anthony Love (GF) – Martha Daisy ‘Dolly” Love (GM) – Bobbye Dwyer ( nee Love, M) and me, Darren Dwyer.

    I was hoping someone can shed some light on a few stories within our family. It was passed on to me that my grandfather, Robert Anthony Love (b. 1901), enlisted for WW1 using the name and birth date of either Robert James or ‘Jimmy’ Love due to his young age. The name was allegedly from a cousin who was born somewhere around 1897 and died 1898. Considering at the outbreak of hostilities (1914) he would’ve been at least 13 y.o. A little hard to believe. It is possible however he enlisted when he was 15 or 16 using the name and D.O.B in the above details. However there is no reference to any ‘Jimmy’ or ‘Jim’ Love in the Australian War Memorial, though there are a handful of James or Robert James Love’s listed. He was apparently wounded during conflict and sent home. Interestingly his friends and family always called him ‘Jimmy’. What becomes more confusing is at least by 1917 he’s playing for the Balmain Tigers rugby league side. He played for the Balmain Tigers making first grade between 1918 and 1927 and is always officially listed as ‘Jimmy’ or ‘J’ Love. He played in most first grade sides during that period (including game three of the 1924 NSW v Qld representative match, forerunner to State of Origin). He is also in the winning grand final pictures of the Balmain sides in 1919, 1920 and 1924.

    Robert Anthony Love married my grandmother Martha Daisy Tristram (b. 1912) in 1946. This was 8 years after the birth of my mother, Bobbye Yvonne Love (b. 1938). This may have been due to his illness which took his life 4 years later. I’m assuming that marriage to Martha Daisy Tristram was a second marriage since I have found that there was a Robert A Love that married a Elsie M Bradley in South Balmain in 1919. This would co-inside with the rugby league career. He would’ve been 17 at the time and she 16, which was legal with consent. I cannot find any further reference to Elsie after 1919. Is this the same Robert Anthony Love and did she die or were they divorced?
    There was also a Robert A Love married to a Gertrude F Love in Sydney in 1917. Gertrude was born 1882 and died 1924. This seems the least likely sine he would’ve been 16 and her 35, though stranger things have happened!!!

    Any help would be greatly apreciated!!

    Cheers,

    Darren

    1. Hi Darren. Your Robert Anthony Love born 1901 is possibly a brother to Charles Love born 1887, parents William Love and Minnie Stephens who were married 11 May 1885 at Bethel House George Street Sydney. My records show their children as William 1885, Charles 1887, Robert 1889, Joseph 1891, Henry 1893, John 1896 and Robert 1901. All were born in Millers Point. Charles Love married Violet Teresa Price 6th February 1911 and is the grandfather of the person for whom I am researching the Love family. I am trying to prove that the William Love who married Minnie Stephens is really the son of Robert and Mary Brady.

  83. Darren,

    Your best source might be “A Family Began With Love: John & Martha Love 220 years of their descendants and associated families” by Margaret Cooper. ISBN 978-0-646-54721-3. That’s a bibliographic number which should help your local library find the book. There are twelve Robert Loves in the book and their birth date is beside the names in the Index, one is 1901 at page 458.
    Three James Loves born 1857, 1847 and 1953.

    There are dozens of male Loves in the index, only a few have their birth years listed.

    Ken

  84. Hi there I was absolutely blown away by your geneaology site. Its terrific! My sons (are descendants through John Hoare and Elizabeth Loves daughter Martha. Martha married John Robinson (Charles Robinson and Elizabeth Harris’ son) and their son Andrew married Helena Schuback. I am travelling to Bega next week and hope to find some graves there. Keep up the good work its tremendous. Maria Gregory

  85. I have followed the above comments with great interest. I am researching my sister-in-law’s family tree and the last connection I have is the birth of William Love in 1861 father Robert Love, Waterman mother Mary Brady, birth at Ferry Lane Millers Point. Robert was 36 years old in 1861 which makes his birth 1825. I have their marriage certificate of 9th June 1846 taking place at Holy Trinity Church. From the comments on the website I think my Robert is son of Joseph and Mary Ann Goodwin. The reference to the house at the Rocks being lived in by Mary Ann, her older children and various Goodwin family, ties in with the marriage between Robert and Mary Brady being witnessed by Elizabeth Goodwin of Argyle Street. Robert and Mary’s son William born 1861 married Minnie Stephens at Bethel House in May 1885 and their son Charles born 1887 married Violet Price at St Patricks in Feb 1911. Charles and Violet were my sister-in-law’s grandparents. Any comments on whether I may be right in claiming this connection? Most of Robert’s children (William and his brothers) lived in and around Kent Street (Clyde Street, Harts Buildings, Patons Buildings). All of William’s children were born in Millers Point. Thank you for allowing me to join in this thread James.

    1. Hi Gloria
      Great to hear from you. Hopefully this link may lead to further connections.
      I love how you’ve given a modern context to the places they lived eg: Harts. Wow. I know that place, so it all just makes sense.
      James

      1. Thanks James. Yes, all the old streets of Millers Point that were lost in the resumptions of 1900. William Love lived in Kent Street right next to the Captain Cook hotel. His building is still there. Ferry Lane is gone but there is a walkway from Pottinger Road to Fort Street. Millers Point and the Rocks still have a lot of history to find.

  86. James, I have tried to contact the Coopers by email to buy a copy of the book, A Family Began with ‘Love’ but their email address is not current. Could you help me with any info about the availability of this book or a way to contact Lyle and Margaret.

  87. Hi James,
    Wow, thank you so much for all the work you have done in putting together this web page. I am directly descended from John and Martha through Joseph Lester and Charles Steptoe.I only really have just begun to look at this and am so pleased I found your website. I too am really interested in obtaining a copy of A family began with “Love”. I am especially interested in our heritage around Eden on which my christian name was carried for a few generations.
    cheers Eden Antony Love

  88. Hello there, I found this site when I was goggling to look where Honeysuckle at Wyndham was. John and Martha Love were my fifth great grandparent’s. I have just started Ancestry and am amazed at the information available. Thank you so much for all the comprehensive info you have shared with so many.
    Kind regards
    Melinda

  89. Dear James, I have recommenced my family genealogy and have recently found John Love and Martha connection ( my 5th grandparents) through his grand daughter Mary Ann French. Thank you for your research. When I added my data to ancestry.com, i can not believe John Loves birth date and his imprisonment /criminal history at 80 yrs of age!!!! Is there any evidence of him living into his 90s? My research shows >20 individuals baptised as John Love 1726-1767
    john SAVILL

    1. Agreed John re the age thing. It does sound highly unlikely, especially given the ages most people died, but it’s the collective wisdom of research over a number of years. There’s also considerable debate about who exactly was Martha.

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