John Hoare and Elizabeth Love

John Hoare : Irish Rebel

John Hoare was originally from County Wexford, Ireland, although the exact details of his birthdate and birthplace remain unconfirmed.

Wexford is located in the southeast region of Ireland, in the province of Leinster. The county played a significant role in Irish independence, especially the 1798 uprising, which is celebrated and preserved to this day. It is noteworthy that John Hoare was known as one of the “United Irishmen,” a group of Irish nationalists who sought independence from British rule.

Researcher Graham Lewis has provided information that John Hoare enlisted in the Royal Navy at the Port of London on September 7, 1795. Initially, he served on the HMS Royal William and soon transferred to HMS Impregnable. In 1796, he moved to HMS Defiance. On board the HMS Defiance, Hoare was one of a group of people found guilty of their involvement in a naval mutiny. The trial was held from September 8 to 14, 1798, with the trial records held by the UK Public Records Office PRO ADM 1/5347. Although the records are being sought, if anyone has a copy they are willing to share, it would be appreciated.

The Report of Committee of Secrecy of the House of Commons: Ordered to be printed 15th March, 1799 (available as a Google eBook) provides some information about the court martial held on board The Gladiator and The Cambridge.

This document is an abstract of the proceedings of a court martial that took place on board His Majesty’s Ship Gladiator in Portsmouth Harbour between September 14 and 16, 1798, with Captain John Holloway as President and seven other Captains comprising the Court. The Court was convened to try twenty-three sailors and one marine from the HMS Defiance, Captain Theophilus Jones, who were accused of holding mutinous assemblies on board the ship and taking an oath to overthrow the government.

One of the accused sailors was John Hoare, who was known to be one of the “United Irishmen”. All the evidence presented in court pointed to the guilt of the prisoners to a greater or lesser degree. The Court passed the sentence of death on nineteen of the accused, including Hoare. However, in consideration of some circumstances, the Court recommended leniency for eight of the accused, including Hoare, on the condition of transportation to a penal colony. Two others, James Moor and James Lawlers, were sentenced to receive 300 lashes each and one year’s solitary confinement in the Marmalfea. Two more, Owen McCartey and Michael Foy, were sentenced to receive 100 lashes each and six months solitary confinement. Patrick Hynes was sentenced to one year’s solitary confinement, and John Donally was acquitted.

This document provides a unique insight into the naval mutinies that took place during this period, which were often linked to political unrest and dissatisfaction with living conditions and wages. It also sheds light on the role of the “United Irishmen” in the rebellion against British rule in Ireland. The trial records mentioned in this document are held by the UK Public Records Office PRO ADM 1/5347, and may provide further details about the mutiny and the fate of the accused.

ABSTRACT of Proceedings at a Court Martial on Board His Majesty’s Ship Gladiator in Portsmouth Harbour between the 14 and 16 of September 1798 Sunday excefted Captain JOIIM HOLLOWAY President who with Seven other Captains composed the Court. This Court was assembled for the trial of John Brady, William Lindsay, John Hopkins, James Moor, Chistopher Mahane, Terence Dunn, Thomas Jourdaine, James Cannon, David Keed, 1 homac Derbyfhire, Nicholas Ryan, Cornelius Callaghan, Owen McCartey, Richard Kennedy, Thomas LufEn, Patnck Dcvoy, John Uonally, Peter McGuire, John Hoare, Edward Swinney, Patrick Hynes, Michael Foy, Michael Kelly and Edward M Laughlin seamen and James Lawlers private marine belonging to his Majesty’s ship Defiance Captain Theophilus Jones for having held mutinous afiemblies on board the laid ship at which an oath to the following purport was taken I swear to be true to the free and United Irishmen who are now fighting our cause against tyrants and oppressors, and to defend their rights to the last drops of my blood and to keep all secret, and I do agree to carry the ship into Brest the next time the ship looks out ahead at sea and to kill every officer and every man that shall hinder us, except the master and to hoist a green ensign with a harp on it and afterwards to kill and destroy all the Protestants. All the evidence clearly mewed the guilt of the prisoners in a greater or lesser degree and the court having heard what they had to offer in their defence parted lenience of death on Brady, Lindsay, Hopkins, Mahane, Dunn, Jourdaine, Cannon, Reed, Derbyfhire, Ryan, Callaghan, Kennedy, Laffin, Devoy, McGuire, Hoare, Swinney, Kelly and M Laughlin. But in confederation of some circumstances Hopkins, Mahane, Dunn, Jourdaine, Cannon, Devoy, McGuire, and Hoare were recommended by the court for mercy on condition of transportation amd Moor and Lawlefa were sentenced to receive 300 lashes each and one year’s solitary confinement in the Marmalfea. Mccartneyy and Foy were sentenced to receive 100 lashes each and six months solitary confinement. Hynes was sentenced to year’s solitary confinement and Donally was acquitted. APPENDIX No 20 91

Sorry if that was all a bit difficult to read. I’ll try and make it clearer.

Derby Mercury of Thu 20 Sep 1798
Derby Mercury of Thu 20 Sep 1798

There’s a brief mention of the incident in the “Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette” of Thursday 23 August 1798.

In the latter ship 45 United Irishmen are brought in irons for mutiny. The court martial on eight of the UNSURE crew will finish to-day.

Along with some other newspapers, The Derby Mercury of Thursday 20 Sep 1798 records the following….

On Saturday the trials of several sailors belonging to the Defiance for Mutiny and Sedition commenced on board the Gladiator, at Portsmouth. The following is the oath, the taking, and administering of which constitutes the substance of the charge against them : — “I swear to be true to the free and United Irishmen who are now fighting our cause against tyrants and despots, and to defend their rights to the last drops of my blood and to keep all secret, and I do agree to carry the ship into Brest the next time the ship looks out ahead at sea and to kill every officer and every man that shall hinder us, except the master and to hoist a green ensign with a harp on it and afterwards to kill and destroy all the Protestants

According to the historian, Patrick O’Farrell, there was a great deal of excitement about the arrival in Australia of these rebel convicts.

The 1798-1803 rebels were a colonial cynosure: their fellow Irish hero-worshiped them; the authorities feared them and exaggerated their numbers and influence”. He tempers this, though, by arguing “in a strictly nationalist sense, political rebels among the Irish convicts seem relatively few; about 1.5 percent, that is, less than 600 in the entire history of transportation, of whom nearly 500 arrived in the very early years of the colony, up to 1806”. “The most prominent rebels were often men of some previous substance, educated, high principled and quite often Protestants”. He also says, “These rebels took their land grants, conformed and prospered. They adopted a low public profile in response to their seditious reputations and devoted themselves to work, and those good lives.

John Hoare’s life took a difficult turn when he was imprisoned on Norfolk Island, known for its harsh conditions, under the regime of Captain Foveaux. He remained there from November 1802 to June 15, 1804. Upon his return to New South Wales, he was placed on the Government Farm at Castle Hill. This was just a few months after the failed uprising by mostly Irish convicts at the same location. Subsequently, Hoare worked as a laborer for John Llewellyn, who had arrived in Australia as part of the NSW Corps, on his Hawkesbury River property.

Elizabeth Love : Early immigrant

John Hoare and Elizabeth Emelia Love were married on July 10, 1809, at St. Phillip’s Church in Sydney (V1809 881 3A). Elizabeth was born in Hampshire, England, and arrived in Australia as an infant with her parents, John and Martha Love, on the Third Fleet. She spent her early years in the area around The Rocks in Sydney Cove before her family presumably moved to the Field of Mars, where she met John Hoare.

Initially, John and Elizabeth lived in the Field of Mars before moving to the Campbelltown Districts of Airds and Appin, where they farmed with the assistance of convict labor. The birth records of their children indicate that they continued to live in the area for some time.

By 1828, John and Elizabeth had increased their land holdings to 90 acres, which they had cleared and fully cultivated. They also had eight cattle. However, it is unknown how they spent their later years and ended up being buried in Dapto. It is possible that they moved closer to their younger children, some of whom had married people in Wollongong.

Researcher, Kath Raulings mentions in a comment below she believes John Hore “had land at Illawarra and was granted a convict groom and farm servant. In 1839, both father and son had land at Dapto. See 1839 NSW Gov Gaz. pp.1353, 1378 and again in 1840 pp. 152, 171, 425 and 706. Some of these entries also relate to land in Murrumbidgee district (possibly Cumberoona) and at Camden. I have a feeling I remember seeing in one of the gazettes that there was some land transferred or given between the Hores and Rixons around Dapto. Hope this might help.”.

Adjoining land owned by John Love and his son-in-law, John Hoare.
Elderslie Land Grants
Elderslie Land Grants

John died on April 25, 1862 (6420/1862), while Elizabeth died on March 3, 1878 (448/1878), although the NSW BDM spells her name Hore. They are buried together and the inscription on the headstone reads…

Sacred to the memory of Mr John Hore, a native of County Wexford Ireland, who departed this life, 25th April 1862, also of Elizabeth Hore, native of Hampshire England, died March 3rd 1878 aged 96 years.

Researcher, Clontarf notes :  “There was an inquest on his death. He must have died suddenly away from home.  Unfortunately because the coroner registered the death there is very little useful genealogical information in it, and it more or less ends the possibility of tracing his parents or precise birth location.  I could not find any report of the inquest in the Illawarra Mercury or the Kiama Examiner, but did find a brief report on the funeral (from Trove).  The inquest also does not seem to appear on the index visible on Ancestry.  Hopefully it exists somewhere.” If you’re able to find details of the inquest, please comment below.

On Sunday last the remains of Mr. John Hoare, a colonist of 64 years standing, a great portion ofwhich he spent in this district, were conveyed totheir final resting place, followed by between twohundred and fifty and three hundred mourners. So large an attendance shows the high estimation inwhich the deceased was held, and must have beenhighly gratifying to the numerous relatives that hehas left behind him.

Illawarra Mercury, April 29, 1862

According to Elizabeth’s newspaper obituary, which was kindly supplied by Lesley Ford and Jan Johnson from an Illawarra Paper dated 1878, Elizabeth spent several years living in Sydney with her daughter Ann (then named Ann Phibbs) after John’s death. It can be presumed that Elizabeth resided at Ann’s home on Castlereagh Street, which was located not far from what is now Central Station.

In the following issue of the 5th instant, a notice appeared, announcing the death of another lady, whose life had almost xxxxxx? a century, and whose connection with this district has been long and intimate. We allude to Mrs. John Hore, relict of the late Mr. John Hore, and mother of Mr. Charles Hore, of West Dapto. The deceased lady reached the great age of 96 years. Her residence in this colony, was about coeval with the history of its colonization, she being only ten years of age when she arrived in Port Jackson with her parents. She therefore constituted one of the population of Australia 86 years out of the 90 years of it’s existence as a British Territory. In her last days, few if any other persons in this or any of these colonies could say so much in this respect. She was one of the pioneers of Australian colonization in the true sense of the term, having whitnessed the rise of this great dependency of the British Empire from a state of absolute barbarism to its present proud and important position as a civilized community and unexampled field for enterprise.

Mrs. Hore resided many years in this district with her husband and a large family, of which Mr. Charles is the younger member. She survived her husband several years, however, and for some considerable time past she resided at Sydney with one of her daughters, Mrs. Phibbs. It was only latterly that her health, which hitherto had been of the most robust character, began to fail, and finally, on Sunday 7, the 3rd instant, her spirit passed away from it’s earthly tenement, which from sheer decay of nature, had become incapable of longer retaining it. Her remains were brought per steamer, on the following Monday evening, and on being landed at Wollongong were conveyed to St. Francis Xaviers Church, where, in the absence of ther Rev. Dean Flanagan, the Rev. P O’Reilly of Dapto, performed the usual ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church on such occasions. In the forenoon of the same day, the funeral cortege proceeded to the Catholic cemetery, West Dapto, where the remains were deposited with the sacred dust of some of the relatives of the deceased who had gone before. The Rev. P O’Reilly officiated on this occasion also, and the mourners included friends of the deceased from Sydney, in addition to Mr. Charles Hore, and several members of his family.

Elizabeth’s death was also reported in the Sydney Morning Herald on Thursday 14 September 1882…

HORE – March 8, at the residence of her daughter, Mrs Ann Phibbs, Elizabeth, mother of John Hore, Esq, Melbourne, aged 96.

Death Certificate for Elizabeth Love / Hoare. Contributor, Clontarf notes a number of problems with the death certificate. He writes: “The certificate is internally inconsistent with none of the ages or the time in the colony matching up, highlighting how unreliable death certificates can be. There are also more deceased children than birth or muster records show. Known deceased children are Anthony, Martha and Sarah. There is very little space in the succession of children to fit another two, so this may be another inaccuracy.” For full commentary on this certificate, please refer to the comments below. He cloncludes “The totality of the evidence from her lifetime suggests Elizabeth Love was born in the colony – most probably on 28 Jan 1792, and thus aged 86 at death.”

The other members of the Hore/Hoare family buried at West Dapto, according to this site are.

Hore, Charles Patrick, d. 14 Feb 1900, age: 1year 10mths, Beloved s/o Charles & Clara Hore Accidently Drowned, Sec. Old Grave Yard, #15
Hore, Charles, b. 1869, d. 24 Nov 1931, age: 62years, Our Lady of Perpetual Help Pray For Him Also Our Dear Mother, Sec. Old Grave Yard, #16
Hore, Clara Bridget, b. 1881, d. 2? Nov 1961, age: 80years Our Dear Mother, Sec. Old Grave Yard, #17
Hore, Elizabeth Agnes, b. 1875, d. 06 Oct 1944, age: 69years, Beloved w/o William, Sec. Sth Row C, #3
Hore, Elizabeth, b. 1782 Hampshire England, d. 3 Mar 1878, age: 96years Sec. Old Grave Yard, #118
Hore, John, b. Wexford, Ireland, d. 25 Apr 1862, age: 8?Years Sec. Old Grave Yard, #117
Hore, Margaret, b. Co. Limerick Ireland, d. 4 Mar 1908, age: 79years Sec. Old Grave Yard, #128
Hore, William A, b. 1901, d. 16 Feb 1955, age: 54years, 2572 Private 14 Australian General Hospital. Beloved, s/o The Late Charles & Mrs C.B. Hore of Shellharbour, Sec. Sth Row F, #10
Hore, William, b. 1866, d. 21 Jun 1956, age: 90years Sec. Sth Row C, #4

The grave of John & Elizabeth Hore in 1980, courtesy of Elizabeth Friederich
The grave of John & Elizabeth Hore in 1980, courtesy of Elizabeth Friederich
West Dapto Catholic Cemetery
John Hoare grave at West Dapto Catholic Cemetery, taken in 2010.


Ann Hoare

Ann Hoare was born on May 9, 1810, in Airds, NSW. She married William Rixon, the eldest son of convicts James Rixon and Amelia Goodwin, on January 23, 1826, at St. Peter’s Campbelltown when she was only fourteen years old. The couple initially lived at the Field of Mars before moving to the Campbelltown Districts of Airds and Appin, where they farmed with convict labor. In November 1839, around the time of the birth of their daughter Sarah, William and Ann moved to Spring Creek, where they managed “The Stringy Bark Inn,” a property owned by William’s brother, Benjamin. William also had other hotel interests in the area.

William Rixon passed away on May 28, 1847, in Campbelltown. After his death, Ann married twice more. On June 11, 1848, she married Owen Dunlaghan, who died in January 1851. A year later, on January 24, 1852, Ann married William Henry Phibbs, with whom she had one child, William Jordan Phibbs. William Henry Phibbs died on November 24, 1863. In 1882, Ann resided at 362 Castlereagh Street, Sydney, on the east side between Goulburn and Campbell Street.

Ann passed away on August 8, 1895, at 9 Denison St Woollahra, Sydney, and was buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery, Waverly. If she had lived a little longer, she would have inherited one thousand pounds from her younger brother, as she was named in his will. Her brother left her the sum of one thousand pounds, and if she predeceased him, the same amount would have been given to her son, William Jordan Phibbs.

For more information about their lives, please see the biography page of William and Ann.

Elizabeth Hore and Ann Phibbs photo from 1865 thanks to Elizabeth Friederich
Elizabeth Hore and Ann Phibbs photo from 1865 thanks to Elizabeth Friederich

John Hoare

John Hoare was born on September 17, 1813. He married Elizabeth Waite on January 1, 1839, at All Saints Church in Sutton Forest. According to researcher Judy Roberts, John Hoare Jr. received advice from Hamilton Hume, who owned a property at Lake George, about the best farming lands along the route he had already taken. As a result, John and Hume set off to acquire land for themselves. John Waite, Elizabeth’s father, after traveling south by bullock wagon for six months with some younger women riding on horseback, formed the Bungil run in 1836 for his daughter Elizabeth and son-in-law, John Hoare Jr., who then swapped it in 1838 with Spalding and Cobham for the Wagra (now Wymah) run on the opposite side of the river, which was the stream that had been named the Hume River and later changed to the Murray River.

In addition to holding the Wagra license in 1840, John Hoare Jr. purchased the Talgarno lease in 1848, the Turramia lease in 1848, and the Bethanga lease in 1855. By the time he bought Cumberoona on the north bank of the Murray River opposite Talgarno in 1859 for 12,000 pounds, he had a very valuable pastoral empire in the Upper Murray. Around 1870, he sold Talgarno, Bethanga, and Turramia and confined his attention to Cumberoona.

Elizabeth died at Ellerslie, East St Kilda, Melbourne on February 6, 1895. John died later that same year on October 15, 1895, in St Kilda.

Thanks to Judy, you can also download his will. Photograph courtesy Kellie Jones. Thanks also to Kellie for photographs of the joint gravesite of John and Elizabeh Hore, as well as the individual graves of Elizabeth Hore and John Hore.

Son of John Hoare and Elizabeth Love. Photo with thanks to Kellie Jones.
John and Elizabeh Hore
John and Elizabeh Hore

Elizabeth Hoare

Elizabeth Hoare was born on April 18, 1815, in Airds, New South Wales. She married James Rixon, the son of convicts James Rixon and Amelia Goodwin, on August 27, 1833, at St. Peter’s, Campbelltown. The couple moved to Taylor’s Flat, now known as Cathcart in the Towamba Valley area of S.E. NSW sometime between 1834 and 1838, according to the birth records of their children. The reason for their move is unknown, but it is presumed that they were granted some land.

James Rixon went on to become a prominent hotelier, opening the first hotel in Eden and becoming the early hotel licensee in Bega. He was the first of the family to visit the family hotel (now the museum) when it was known as Rixons Family Hotel. Elizabeth and James had a large family, as noted by Terry Hore on his website.

James Rixon passed away in Bega on September 12, 1873 (3335/1873), while Elizabeth died in Sydney on September 13, 1882 (2069/1882).

Martha Hoare

Martha Hoare was born around 1817 in Cowpastures, New South Wales. On May 13, 1833, she married John Robinson, who was born on April 22, 1798, in Sydney. The birth records of their children indicate that they lived a transitory life over the next decade, with children born in various places such as Dapto (1838), Greenland near Nimmitabel (1843), Nudgee near Cape Howe (1847), Narraburraba (1850), and Twofold Bay (1852), before finally settling at Honeysuckle, near Wyndham, NSW. John Robinson purchased the first 52 acres of land on the Honeysuckle Flats in 1853 after recognizing the land’s potential for farming. (Reference: Wyndham Celebrates).

The Monaro Pioneers website records a great deal of information about Martha, John, and their children. John Robinson passed away on June 8, 1860, at Honeysuckle and was buried on June 11 in Eden, NSW. Three years later, Martha married Adam Lewis on April 20, 1863, at Pambula, NSW. Unfortunately, Martha passed away on July 29, 1873, at “Honeysuckle,” and was buried at Eden on August 3, 1873. The cause of her death was attributed to “decay of nature” for 19 months, with Adam Lewis, her second husband, listed as the informant.

Andrew Hoare

Andrew Hore, the son of John Hore and Elizabeth Waite, was born on May 25, 1820, in Airds, New South Wales. In 1845, he married Jessie Finlayson in Yass, New South Wales. Over the course of his life, Andrew was involved in various business ventures, including running a store in Albury, New South Wales. He was also a grazier and owned several properties in the area.

Andrew Hore passed away on April 17, 1890, at Mugwee, near Albury, New South Wales. He was survived by his wife Jessie and their children. A photograph of Andrew Hore is available, courtesy of Kellie Jones.

You can also view Andrew Hore’s headstone and Jessie Hore’s headstone.

Andrew Hore was born at Airds on 25 May 1820. He married Jessie Finlayson at Yass, NSW in 1845. He died on 17th April 1890 at Mugwee, Albury, NSW. Photo with thanks to Kellie Jones.
In loving memory of our dear mother Jesse Hore, relict of the late Andrew Hore, who died 19th August 1914. Aged 87 years. Thy will be done. (Thanks to Kellie Jones)
In loving memory of our dear mother Jesse Hore, relict of the late Andrew Hore, who died 19th August 1914. Aged 87 years. Thy will be done. (Thanks to Kellie Jones)

Sarah Hoare

Sarah Hoare was born in around 1821 in Minto, NSW. On June 15, 1840, she married James Seymour at St Francis Xavier Catholic Church in Wollongong, NSW. Terry Hore’s website documents the children of Sarah and James. The birth records of their children indicate that they mostly lived in the Illawarra district, with children born in Dapto (1841), Shellharbour (1849), Sydney (1854), and Shellharbour again (1855). Unfortunately, Sarah died in 1862, possibly due to childbirth, as the BDM records the birth of their child, Joseph at Kiama in 1862 (8432/1862). Interestingly, Sarah’s death record suggests that her mother, Elizabeth Love/Hoare, may have been known as Betsy, a common shortening of the name. After Sarah’s death, James married Ellen (Elizabeth?) Condle (widow) at the Presbyterian Church, Elizabeth Street, Sydney on June 18, 1863 (482/1863). James Seymour died on February 15, 1867, in Shellharbour.

William Hoare

William Hoare was born on February 26, 1824, at Minto, New South Wales. He married Rebecca Margaret Seymour, also known as Margaret Gralis, on February 14, 1848, at St Francis Xavier Church in Wollongong, NSW. William and Margaret had several children, including Thomas, William, John, Rebecca, and Mary. The birth records for their children indicate that they lived in various locations throughout NSW, including Wollongong, Dapto, and Jamberoo.

William was a farmer and lived most of his life in the Wagra area. He was involved in the local community and held positions such as justice of the peace and trustee of the Wagra School. William passed away on May 28, 1890, at Wagra, and is buried in the Wagra Cemetery.

Margaret’s headstone can be seen here

Mary Hoare

Mary Hoare was born on July 10, 1826, at Glenlee in Menangle, NSW. She married Michael O’Loughlan, who was born in Cavan, Ireland, on January 7, 1845, at St. Bedes in Appin, NSW. Mary and Michael had a large family, with birth records indicating that they mostly lived in the Appin and Campbelltown areas. Mary passed away on March 5, 1893, at Appin, where she had lived most of her life.

Thomas Hoare

Bergin, who was born in Ireland around 1830, on February 12, 1854, at St John’s Roman Catholic Church in Campbelltown, NSW (V185316 99/1853). Their children’s birth records show that they initially lived in Marrickville in 1855 and then moved to Wollongong in 1857 before finally settling in Albury in 1858.

Thomas passed away on September 5, 1880, at Table Top, Albury, NSW.

Eliza Hoare

Eliza Hoare was born in 1833 at Airds, NSW. She married Sampson Courtney Boyland on February 12, 1853, at Wollongong, NSW. Their eldest daughter, Elizabeth A, was born in 1853, but her birthplace is unknown. However, their sons John, Courtney, and daughter Isabella J were all born at Eden (6465/1857, 7190/1859, 7282/1861). According to researcher Kev Spink, Sampson arrived as a Bounty Immigrant from Co Antrim, Ireland, on board the ship ‘Arthur,’ arriving in Sydney in 1841. He died in March 1861 (2877/1861) after a two-year struggle with cancer.

After Sampson’s death, Eliza married Robert Redshaw on April 23, 1866. Eliza died in Bega in 1893 (3249/1893).

Charles Joseph Hoare

Charles Joseph Hoare was born on 4 July 1837 at Airds, NSW. He married Margaret Noonan on 25th June 1855 at St Francis Xavier, Wollongong. They resided in Wollongong for most, if not all, of their married lives. Charles’s parents also lived in close proximity for quite some time after moving to the district. As researcher Kath Raulings has indicated, the Hoare family had significant land holdings in the area. Charles was mentioned in the will of his brother John and granted significant land holdings in the Camden district in trust, “in trust for my brother Charles Hore and his assigns during the term of his natural life without impeachment of waste AND from and after the decease either in my lifetime or afterwards of my said brother Charles Hore TO HOLD the same in trust for his son Andrew Hore absolutely for ever.”

The birth records for Charles and Margaret’s children indicate that they lived in Wollongong, and Charles died at Moonee Ponds, Melbourne, Victoria on 12th March 1905.


* The note that 20 people on board the HMS Defiance were sentenced to hang is from “Lincoln P. Paine’s SHIPS OF THE WORLD: AN HISTORICAL HISTORICAL ENCYCLOPEDIA” (page 48). There is also a reference to this oath on p278 of “The Language of Liberty, 1660-1832: Political Discourse and Social Dynamics” By J. C. D. Clark, Published 1994 by Cambridge University Press.

* The reported oath was mentioned in the “Report of the Committee of the Secrecy of the House of Commons” ordered to be printed 15th March 1799, London 1799 (pp 72-73)

* Information about the significance of the of Irish rebels in Australia from “The Irish In Australia” by Patrick O’Farrell, University of NSW Press 1986.

* His presence on Norfolk Island is confirmed in the microfilm “The People of Norfolk Island and Van Diemen’s Land 1788-1820 and their families” by James Hugh Donohoe. He returned to NSW in 1804.

*Curiously enough, John did not receive his Certificate of Emancipation until July 15, 1811 .

The 1828 NSW Census lists John Hoare aged 50 Convict on Canada FS Settler at Airds and Elizabeth born colony aged 37. Canada (1) arrived in 1801
Children to this couple
John age 15
Elizabeth age 14
Martha age 12
Andrew age 9
Sarah aged 7
WIlliam age 5
Mary age 3

Colonial Secretary’s Papers:

HOARE, John. Of Field of Mars
1811 Jul 30 : On list of persons to receive lands in the new Districts of Airds or Appin, & in other parts of the Colony; at Airds or Appin (Fiche 3266; 9/2652 p.10)

HOARE, John (Senior). Per “Canada”, 1801
1822 Jul 23: Of Lower Minto. Recommending William Ford, his assigned servant (Reel 6055; 4/1761 p.58)
1823 : Memorial (Fiche 3047; 4/1830 No.168). Reply, 6 Jun (Reel 6010; 4/3508 p.454)
1824 Sep 20: On account of wheat & maize in the possession of settlers in the Districts of Upper & Lower Minto (Reel 6061; 4/1780 p.286)

HOARE, John (Junior). Born in the Colony; son of John Hoare of Upper Minto
1823 : Memorial (Fiche 3047; 4/1830 No.169). Reply, 18 Jul (Reel 6010; 4/3508 p.679)


* The exact date and place of John Hoare’s birthplace remains unconfirmed. I recently heard from researcher, Graham Lewis who notes…

I did spend several hours in the sacristy of the big old church in Wexford Town, and also consulted several professional genealogists there for advice on further research. Basically, they could suggest no further research avenue. I had discovered just one possibility in the parish registers – which are perhaps the oldest and best preserved in all Ireland – a 1775 baptism, but not a John – a saint’s name instead, which escapes me at the moment. I was inclined to be rather dismissive of that, but the genealogists thought it could be our John – that the church would have been a Franciscan Priory in 1775 and the Franciscans were very keen on baptising in saints’ names, but these were often never used in practice by those so named! I’m still not convinced – I felt that John would likely have named one or other of his sons in similar fashion if that had been the case, and he hadn’t. So I think all that can be said is that he was recorded as John Hoare, 22, from Wexford (the latter entered in a column headed “Place and County Where Born”), when he enlisted at the Port of London, on 5 September 1795. It looks like he was enlisted on HMS Royal William that day and joined HMS Impregnable on 15 September. He moved to the HMS Defiance in August 1796.


* Thanks to Terry Hore for documenting the children of John and Elizabeth on his website.

* Marion Starr has a terrific book about Early settlers in the Cowpastures area called, “Murder, Mayhem & Misdemeanours” which contains information about John and Elizabeth. Cost is $30 plus $6 postage within Australia. Payment can be made by direct bank transfer or by cheque. Your copy will be sent as soon as payment is approved. To order your copy please contact Marion

* Thanks to Judy Roberts for the information about John Hore Junior, including his will.

* Thanks to Kellie Jones for sharing some of the wonderful photographs, including the headstones.

Sharing Around: Please feel free to copy any of the information on this page which may help you in your own research. My feeling is that family research is hard enough, without the need to constantly re-invent the wheel. It would be great, however, if you’d leave a comment below just to say “hi”.clont

165 Replies to “John Hoare and Elizabeth Love”

  1. What a fantastic website, thankyou so much. I came across it quite by accident, and am very excited that I did. I am descended from Andrew Hore, son of John and Elizabeth Hore. I have only been researching my Hore family for a couple of months now, and have also been in contact with Terry Hore. I am amazed at the generosity of people like you and Terry for sharing all of this wonderful history with us. Thankyou.

  2. Hi Kellie, great to hear from you. And thank you for your very kind comments. The way I figure it, I think if you can put out as much information as possible you’ll go some way to finding the truth a little more easily and when you’ve got something wrong, people will correct you. The co-incidences you find are also very interesting. For example, through research I actually discovered a former manager of mine and I were both descended from John and Elizabeth, also. I hope your research goes well. James

  3. Hi James,
    I belong to the Rixon chain and have a lot of bits’n pieces on the Hoare/Hore family that you may be interested in or, already have.
    Thank you for your unselfish contribution as it all goes a long way to collecting a much bigger picture. I have a copy of John’s will if you are interested

  4. Hi Judy,

    Thank you for your lovely comment and post. And thankyou for the kind offer about John’s will and other Hore/Hoare family information or documentation. I hope you don’t mind if I use that info on the site, just to expand the knowledge base out there.

    Unfortunately, it seems no one has responded to your earlier comment about the sudden nature of James Rixon’s death. Hopefully someone will eventually provide some evidence either. way.



  5. Thanks James for all your hard work and research. It’s really helpful. Re your comment above that you were unaware of why the Hore’s were at Dapto. I’ve been researching the Hore family along with other related families and their land holdings. You may like to look up the NSW Government Gazettes for 1834, John Hore I believe had land at Illawarra and was granted a convict groom and farm servant. In 1839, both father and son had land at Dapto. See 1839 NSW Gov Gaz. pp.1353, 1378 and again in 1840 pp. 152, 171, 425 and 706. Some of these entries also relate to land in Murrumbidgee district (possibly Cumberoona) and at Camden. I have a feeling I remember seeing in one of the gazettes that there was some land transferred or given between the Hores and Rixons around Dapto. Hope this might help.

  6. hi james,
    love the site and all the information. I too am a descendant of john hore via son william. His son also william inherited a property at wymah of which most of the children including my grandfather were born.
    Your site has certainly filled in a few gaps. The family often talks about the fact that the Murray Grey breed of cattle was developed by the Hore’s on this property. Quite interesting. Thankyou.

  7. Hi James,
    I just read Stella’s entry and am interested in contacting her about William and his family. I am descended from Andrew, his family were also from Wymah. Are you able to pass on my email address to her? Also thankyou for putting John Hore’s Will on your site. Interesting!
    Many thanks.

  8. Hi Stella – I apologise that I haven’t responded properly yet. Unfortunately for me, APEC has meant more work, not less. I will respond properly over the weekend.

    Hi Kellie – I have forwarded your details. The will is with many thanks to Judy who has also sent through some further information which I will have a proper look through over the weekend.

  9. Hi James, Loved reading about John Hoare. As a newbie to genealogy I think John Hoare is the 5th generation in our family. My late father was Noel Andrew Thomas
    Hore,his father Harold Edgar Hore, then Andrew Jnr Hore, then Andrew Hoare(Hore).

    I would love to hear if anyone has compiled the family tree for the Hore Family.

    Kind Regards,

  10. James,
    Thanks for providing this site allowing us to all share information.

    Over recent months I have had descendants from 7 of the children of John Hoare/Hore & Elizabeth Love contact me via my Web-Site, so there is a lot of interest in the family.

    Maybe we should be considering a family get-to-gether some time in the future or creating one total database of Hore descendants?

    Regards to all,
    Terry Hore

  11. Hi James,
    Thankyou for passing on my email to Stella, she has contacted me. This site is becoming a real chat line isn’t it? I think Terry’s idea is a great idea. Reading Sandra’s email makes me think that we are also from the same line of family. (Andrew’s line) I would love to talk to her about this. How do we go about creating something like this without clogging up your great site?
    Kind Regards

  12. Fantastic idea about trying to establish the definitive Hoare/Love family tree from both Kellie and Terry and maybe the anniversary of their wedding is a date to aim for as the start of the family? Glad Kellie that you were able to get in touch with Stella. Thanks for your concern about this site Kellie getting a little top-heavy with comments.

    I suspect a wiki is probably the best way of collaborating on a family tree, though I’ve yet to see a wiki program eg: pbwiki that allows for open comments and people can just contribute to without logging in. We need something like wikipedia, I suspect where people can just write their information and can make changes, corrections etc. This might be the solution perhaps?

    With all the inherent risks of Wikipedia, anyone can go in and edit information, but by the same token you can end up with a good collaborative effort.

    However the good thing about wordpress is that it usually ends up very high in google search, so maybe it’s just establishing another wordpress blog that everyone can contribute to and can have comments from people? I could always establish a separate Hoare family page as another option?

    i’m not sure what the answer is at the moment, but will endeavour to find something.

  13. James,
    I really like the idea of celebrating the 200th anniversary of John Hoare/Hore& Elizabeth Love’s marriage as some form of family get-together. Two years time would be good I feel.

    The suggestion has been made to me by Bernard and Andrew Hore that maybe the descendants should consider adding another plaque at the grave showing what is already on the grave (but fading) together with additional info about them.

    There are almost 6,000 Australian Hoare/Hore family members on the database I hold and I don’t always agree with other researchers info on the “Net”. We need to sort out any such discrepancies somehow as some people tend to take info for granted without checking it.

    My Web-Site only shows my direct ancestors and their siblings or it would be huge and my main research is into my mother’s Smith-Gray lines as nobody else is doing that. At least I’m able to put anybody who contacts me about other family names in touch with others working on the same lines.


  14. Hi James,

    Congradulations on such a great site. I come down through convict John’s son Andrew’s line, and live near the Murry river where the properties of “Cumberoona” and “Mugwee” are located. Its great to find so much information about the family out there and to meet up with so many realitives.

    Keep up the good work,

    Andrew Hore

    1. Hi Andrew, I am also a descendant of Andrew. Also my grandfather was also Andrew Hore. He lived at Bowen Villa Wymah opposite the school. My mother Ella died last year aged 101 years. I hadn’t heard of you before. Where do you fit in? Hope you get this even though this an old site.Ilive in Mudgee but am often in Sydney.

  15. Hi James,

    I love this site. My late Grandfather Harold Edgar Hore
    was born at Cumberoona 9/1/1886.

    Keep up the good work.


  16. Has anybody found a Joe Hore (born in 1887) mentioned anywhere they cannot fit into a Hore family? I’m hoping he shows up in an old Hore family photo somewhere as we don’t have a photo of him at all in his younger days.

    My grandfather Joseph Killalea was born at Dapto, NSW only days after his father died and his mother passed away when he was only 4-5 months old. His real parents were John Killalea & Ann Seymour. He was supposedly raised in the Albury area and probably with a member of his mother’s Seymour family connected to the Hore’s. He was known as Joe Hore all his life and his 3 children were registered as Hore.

    Hopefully somebody can help solve the mystery as to which Hore family raised Joe.

    Terry (I should be a Killalea but also descend from Sarah Hoare/Hore).

  17. It was great to hear from you Andrew and Sandra. As I just explained to Terry in an email

    “I’m quite amazed by the response putting up my genealogical information has had. I have had a personal diary online for a number of years with a small group of people commenting, but it’s mostly been a creative writing exercise. And then, a few months ago, I decided to put up all the information I had because I think it’s really important to share, and because I think we’ll all solve the problems more quickly if we share, and the response has been terrific. I’m quite overwhelmed”

  18. I am a desendant of John and Elzabeth through their daughter Mary along the female line of descent. I am very interested in helping to celebrate the anniversary in 2008.

  19. Thank you for all the info that you have provide on my ancerstry apparently the name Love goes back to 400 as.
    My son Ralph Love is also onto your site and has helped me a lot.Keep up the good work

  20. Jann – Hello Jann. Looks like there’s a good groundswell of people willing to give it a go.

    Lionel – Thank you very much for your kind comments on my website. Hello also to your son Ralph. I had boxes full of stuff just sitting at home and so I am glad putting the information out there has been useful to others. Hopefully other people who have been doing researching will come across the site and contribute information too.

    1. James
      hi thank you very much im from the micheal & mary Oloughlan (hore)family
      i was tracing my family by microish in the library for a year and got burnt out just names but now since my dad has started up the serch again and reading all your facinating blogs u have re kindled the pasion
      thankyou you have given them all life again


      1. Hi, I have just started a family tree, from the information I have to date, it looks like we are from the Michael Hoare- Mary O’Laughlan marriage. Details I have is daughter Ann Mary(Anna Maria) born 1863 married my great grandfather George Haydon born 1857. At this date unable to confirm number of children. It looks like my grandfather John Henry Earl Haydon born 1893 was one of their children.

  21. To try and help put the Hoare/Hore family tree together I have added all I know of the first 3 generation here in Australia to my Web-Site.

    A large amount of this information was gathered over the years by Leanne Kellalea in her efforts to try and find out who raised my grandfather Joseph Killalea (grandson of Sarah Hoare). “Thanks – Leanne”

    Although Leanne has not been able to completely solve the Joseph Killalea mystery, her efforts are really appreciated as I feel we can use them to help put the Hoare/Hore tree together properly should a decision be made to hold a reunion in 2009.

    Please don’t hesitate to notify me of any alterations/mistakes (probably my typing errors mainly) or additions etc.


  22. Hi James, Great idea of Terry’s to celebrate the 200th Anniversary of John
    Hoare/Hore and Elizabeth Love’s marriage.

    I would certainly be interested being a descendant of John Hoare.


  23. Hi James
    Re John Hoare, he was indeed a Royal Navy mutineer, but certainly nothing to do with the events you refer to. He was a minor player in an incident on board HMS Defiance in August 1798, when he and a group of other Irish seamen were heard to swear seditious oaths of allegiance to the United Irishmen. Some of them were heard to be plotting to take over the ship when it was next out to sea, murder the officers and English seamen, and carry it off to Brest, in the hope of persuading the French to join with them in throwing the English out of Ireland.
    Much of this plotting took place while on the grog, so it was not surprising that they were found out, clapped in the coal hole, taken back to Portsmouth, brought before a court martial, and the bulk of them (including John) sentenced to death, on 20 September 1798. The death sentences were carried out in Portsmouth a day or so later, with one of more hung before the crew of every ship in the harbour, as an “encouragement” to others to behave themselves!
    John was one of a few of the younger “bit players” who pleaded for mercy and had their sentences commuted to transportation. All the above is to be found in the surviving court martial papers. John rates just a couple of sentences of script in something over 100 pages.
    The events were also reported in the (London) Times, September 1798.
    John then spent about nine months on the Portsmouth prison hulks before joining the Canada for the 6-month trip to NSW with the others whose sentences had been commuted. They were joined by William Redfern, who I think was involved in the mutiny at the Nore, but I can’t swear to that. Redfern in Sydney is named after him of course.
    Kind regards

  24. Does anyone have a copy of the court documents relating to John’s conviction or to the article in The Times to which Graham refers?

  25. Hi James,Regarding Kellie’s letter dated September 10,2007.
    I would also like to get in touch with her in regards to Andrew
    Great site!
    Kind regards,

  26. Sandra – Details passed on and I believe you’ve been in contact.

    Lynette – lovely to hear from you. This is so great to have contact with so many people.

  27. Hi,

    Thanks you for all of the effort to which you have gone. My own research into John Hoare had not been very thorough, and I am grateful to be able to benefit from yours.

    I am descended from John Hoare and Elizabeth Love through their daughter Martha and her husband John Robinson.

    I have a few pictures that relate to Martha if you would like to see them.

    Should you obtain a copy of the trial transcript related to John Hoare’s trial I would be very keen to obtain a copy.

    Best regards,

    Ronald Robinson

    1. I too am descended from Martha and John Robinson, I would like to see any photos you have.


      Billy SHAW

  28. Hi Ronald, thanks for your post. If you are willing to send through the photographs I would love to see them, and if you are happy to, to post one or two on this site. When I come across or obtain a copy of the trial transcript for John Hoare’s trial, I will definitely post it on the site. James

  29. I had another look through the family tree and shook a few branches.

    It seems that the Hoare/Hore and Robinson families were linked at least twice during the rearly years of the colony.

    Charles Robinson and Elizabeth Harris had three children: Mary, John, and Maria.

    1. John Robinson married Martha Hoare, the daughter of John Hoare and Elizabeth Harris.


    2. Mary Robinson married a chap called John Waite. You refer to John Waite in your research. Their daughter was the apparently inexhaustable Elizabeth Waite. Elizabeth Waite first married a chap called John Wright in 1834, however he died in 1837. Elizabeth next married John Hoare, son of John Hoare and Elizabeth Amelia Love, January 1, 1839 in All Saints Church of England, Sutton Forest, NSW. They had no children.


    Death Notes: 1. JOHN2 HOARE (JOHN HONE GORE1) was born 17 September 1813 in Minto, New South Wales, Australia., and died 15 October 1895 in St. Kilda, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.. He married ELIZABETH WAITE 1 January 1839 in All Saints, Sutton Forest, New South Wales, Australia., daughter of JOHN WAITE and MARY ROBINSON. She was born 10 October 1812 in Glenfield, New South Wales, Australia., and died 6 February 1895 in “Ellerslie”, St. Kilda, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia..

    Notes for JOHN HOARE:
    (Info obtained has surname spelt HORE and HOARE).
    See Wymah Public School Centenary Booklet, Page 11.
    See Doomed Talgarno by W.H. Ferguson.

  30. Hi James
    Just came across your site. My husband is a descendant of Martha Hoare and John Robinson. Have been working on Twyford tree since 1999.

    Just checking my mail and googling for something else when your site came up. Will bookmark and enjoy reading it later.


  31. Hello James

    Thank you for producing such an excellent site. John and Elizabeth’s daughter Eliza is my wife’s Great Great Grandmother and as you correctly mention, married Sampson Courtney Boyland in 1853. Sampson arrived as a Bounty Immigrant from Co Antrim, Ireland on board the ship ‘Arthur’ arriving in Sydney in 1841. He died in March 1861 after a two year struggle with cancer. Eliza remarried to Robert Redshaw in 1866. I have a plethora of information on the Boyland family which I am more than willing to pass on to anyone who may be interested.



  32. Hi Kev, great ot hear from you. And thank you for the additional information you have provides about Eliza and Sampson Boyland. As it’s another line of research which I have not undertaken, I wonder if you might provide some further brief biographical information about her them, and whatever you know about Robert Redshaw, which I could add to the site (with proper attribution to your work), which might contain informations about them, their children, where they lived, where they died etc. I will promise to pass on to you any information that comes in from other interested researchers also, including any request for contact details. Cheers, James

    Thanks to Mary and Ronald for your comments too. I’m sorry I haven’t responded earlier, but the Christmas season has kept me busy and I’m only now returning to family history in earnest.

  33. Hello James/Kev,
    I too am a Boyland descendent, but not from the Sampson/Eliza marriage.
    My Boyland roots also come from Antrim in the form of Thomas Boyland, who sailed with Sampson as bounty emigrants in 1840. I have records showing that the ship was “Alfred” not Arthur a Kev advises.

    Thomas settled in Brisbane and made quite a name for himself as a Master Mariner captaining Paddle Steamers up the Brisbane and Bremer Rivers in the late 1840’s- 1850’s.

    Kev, if you have any info on Thomas I would more than grateful to compare notes.

    James – this is a great website with a wealth of information on the Hoare family connections. Well done!


  34. Hi Cathy,
    Great to hear from you and I’m glad the information I have here was useful. I’ve passed your details on to Kevin, so I hope you can work together on this.

  35. Hi Kathy, I’ve passed your info on to Terry Hore, since he’s doing such a great job in collecting all of the family information. My main research interests have been on my own ancestors, and more recently on their siblings to flesh out the stories a little more. I’m more a family historian at heart, as I love the stories about people. I hope you can find some common ground. James

  36. Hi James,

    Thanks for passing my details onto to Kev. He has already been in contact and provided some great details.
    Look forward to tracing the connection back even further now.



  37. Hi Terry,

    I believe Henry Hillier my Great Grandfather was born at Wagra Creek on the Hore property about 1842. Elizabeth Hillier was his mother’s name.
    I was wondering if anyone has information about Henry and Elizabeth. Henry lived with his wife Johanna Barclay at Wagra Creek, they had at least 3 children there, until they moved to Granya about 1875-1880.


    1. I have been researching the Hillier line from England for over 20 yrs,and have came acroos your Henry & Joanna Barclay,I might just have some NEW info for you.
      My Hilliers arrived in Yass in 1844.
      Mark Hilier
      mob. 0412 142 132

      1. Hi Mark, I am Frank Kilpatrick’s cousin, and came across your response to Frank’s query re Henry Hillier. You allude to NEW information about Henry Hillier, and I was wondering if you would be willing to share this with me, as Frank is unwell at the moment and unable to follow up his research for a while. I have noted your mobile no. and will pass on to Frank, but am hesitant to call you directly without your consent. If you happen to see this, please confirm if ok for me to give you a call in relation to this.

      2. Hi Mark, I am the sister of Frank Kilpatrick. I believe Frank contacted you years ago regarding our Great Great Grandparents , Henry and Johanna Hillier. Would you mind if I contacted you regarding this matter as Frank has passed away and most of the Family history has gone with him.
        Hope this isn’t too much of a hassle.

  38. I am the granddaughter of William Robinson, the son of John Robinson & Sara Rixon, the son of John Robinson and Martha Hoare. We must be related and would loae to know how.

  39. Hi James,
    Thanks so much for providing so much information free to everyone to copy. I am only new to researching and was thrilled to find your website. Thank you for sharing. I am a decendant of Sarah Hoare. My mothers grandmother was a Carbery.


  40. Hi Lyn, I’m glad the information has been useful. It’s been great that so many people have been willing to share the information they;ve had, especially things like the will, photographs and obituary. It makes it so much easier for everyone I reckon.

    Joyce, thanks also for your post. My head goes a little ga-ga when trying to work out all of the connections. I’m sure Terry might be able to help out with an answer to that one.


  41. My husband is related to the Love family.
    Do you have a copy of the Love Family Tree compiled by Betty Gill in Oct 1991?
    It lists all the Hoare family from Elizabeth Love.
    If you do not have a copy, please let me know.

  42. Hi Margaret, nice to hear from you. I haven’t seen the tree compiled by Betty Gill, but it would be interesting to see and to offer here to anyone who might wish to see it. Terry Hore might also be interested in seeing it, as he has developed a pretty extensive tree on his website too.

  43. Dear James,
    Have just found your site and have lots of information to share with the Hoare/Hore family, at a later date when I get it altogether.
    But, would like to make a comment about the Murray Grey Cattle that Stella Hore referred to in her e-Mail, the Breed was developed by the The Gadd Familly (Walwa-Vic) and the Sutherland Family (Walwa-Vic). The Murray Grey Society has a full history of the breed and how it was developed. All the best Janet m Drummond.

  44. Hi Janet, thank you for the information re: Murray Grey cattle, and I look forward to any further Hoare/Hore information you might have. Cheers, James

  45. Hi James,

    Fantastic site, I am really impressed. Do you happen to have any information on Jessie Fendelson? I am tracing her sister Catherine. Any clues would be greatly appreciated.


  46. Hello Di, thanks for your comments. I don’t have any info personally on Jessie, but will happily pass on emails that come from through. Cheers, James

  47. Hi James,

    Have just read Di’s comments about Jessie and Catherine. I have a fair bit of information on Jessie and I am also trying to track down Catherine, so if you would like to pass on my email address to Di, that would be great.

    Kellie Jones

    1. Hi Kellie,I am related to John Hoare/eliz/Love then Robinson then Fyfe then Silvester.My wife is a Jones they lived in Wagga and Mittagong areas Thomas was Irish & M.Eliz Halloran son James M.Sarah Chalker/Charker son Edward M.Sarah Quinlivin son Edward M.Thelma Myers daughter Cheryl Edward any connections with your Jones Regards TED

      1. Hi Ted,

        Jones is my married name, and I’m sorry but I don’t think there is a connection with our Jones families. Our Jones family came from Wales. I can understand if you have some frustration researching your Jones line, very common name.


  48. Hi
    John Love was my G x 4 Grandfather. I decend from John & Elizabeth daughter Mary who married Michael O’Loughlan in 1845 at Appin. We had a small (about 100 of us) family reunion (O’Loughlan) at St Bede’s Church Appin in 1991, anniversary of Michael’s 200yr death.

    I researched the family history about 18 years ago and just last week decided to give it another go. I am amazed at how much info has been gathered about the family and the stories are fantastic. I have been inspired to get involved.

    The idea of a family reunion for the 200yr anniversary of Elizabeth and John’s July 1809 marriage is a great idea.

    I would love to see any of the photos that have been mentioned e.g. Elizabeth & Ann and John Hoare.

    Thanks for all the hard work


  49. Hi,
    John Love was my gx4 grandfather as well and we then descend thro Elizabeth Hoare and James Rixon. Would like to make contact with any other close relations.
    Is there to be a reunion on 10/7/2009 if so count me in??

  50. I have not looked at this page for a while so I missed seeing Martina Thompson’s message until now. I would like to get in touch with Martina as I am also a Mary Hoare descendant. Martina please email me jannoc (insert the usual thingo) and the dots that follow iprimus com au
    I am still hoping there will be a family get together on the 100th anniversay of John and Elizabeth’s marriage next year.

  51. Hi James,

    On the 2nd June I posted on your site congratulations and a request for any information on Catherine Fendelson, just after this my computor died and I have just replaced it. I noticed that Kellie Jones added a reply permitting you to pass on her email address to me. Poor Kellie probably thinks I am dreadfully rude not replying but circumstances have not permitted. Would it be at all possible for you to either pass on my email address to Kellie or to give me her address.

    Thankyou for your help

    1. Hi Di and James

      Kellie and I were working together on the Smith/Hoare/Hore/Rixon’s with another lady Kath, we have lots of info on them and have solved a few mysteries in the Rixon line too! I would love to hear from you.

  52. Hi James,

    W0W, what an amazing amount of information you have in here. I am a decendant of John & Elizabeth Hoare through my late mother, who’s maiden name was Ruth Elizabeth Hore (1919-2007). Ruth Elizabeth was one of 12 children of Thomas Patrick Hore (1885-1953). His father was William Patrick Hore (1853-1926). His father was William Hoare (1824-1890). His parents were John Hoare & Elizabeth Amelia Love.

    This site has given me an amazing insight into my Hore/Hoare decendants, of which I knew very little before starting to research my family tree less than 2 years ago.

    I too would be very interested in a Hore/Hoare family reunion. I live in central Victoria.

    1. Hi don not sure if this goes through as it’s been 6 years I am related as your late mother Ruth is my grandfather Raymond sister, my father Is Michael

  53. Over recent weeks I have created an additional site for other information I have been holding on the Hore family which is now available at:

    My original site only contained details of my direct ancestors and their siblings but here you will find a lot more information, especially relating to the Hore families in the Albury area.

    I have also added all I have on the Seymour’s as there are so many confusing tangles between the Hore and Seymour lines this may also be of help to others:


  54. Hi all,
    Just wanted to say hi to Don Hewitt, we are cousins, I knew Aunty Ruth and Bob well but we never meet. I am the second daughter of Lionel, youngest brother to Ruth. Miss her she was a great lady.

    1. Hi Stella I replied to Don as I have just seen this we are related as well as Aunty Ruth is my grandfather Raymond sister . His son Michael is my father

  55. Great to learn more about Ann Hoare (eldest daughter of John Hoare and Elizabeth Love). She is my great-great-grandmother and I sometimes visit her grave at Waverley Cemetery where she is buried with her daughter-in-law


    Jim Weeks

  56. Hello Jim, great to hear from you. I would love to go to the cemetery to take a photograph of her grave. Can you please give me a rough idea of where it is? It’s such a great cemetery, very beautiful. James

  57. Confusion!!! While surfing the web tonight, I came across an image on the Monaro Pioneers website for a gavesite for John and Elizabeth which looks totally different to the image I have. Can anyone please clarify? Are there, in fact, two memorials, or is there something wrong? Or is this Elizabeth Waite? Help!!! Can anyone clarify?,%20Elizabeth%20headstones.jpg

  58. James,
    The photo showing on the Monaro Pioneer site is John Hore & Eliz Waite.

    I have photos of both John Hoare & Eliz Love (Dapto West Catholic Cemetery) and John Hore & Eliz Waite’s (Albury Pioneer Cemetery) graves I have taken in recent years.


    1. I too have the same photos. My name is Joy Kneale and I am the granddaughter of Rodger & Olga Hore from Wagga Wagga NSW.
      If you have any news/information you would like to share, I’d love to hear from you.
      Thank you
      Joy Kneale

  59. i was reading comments bout joe hore having three kids i know this is true one is my father and the others are my uncle and aunty

  60. Hi James,
    A big Thank You to Terry for the Hoare/Hore information which he has so kindly shared.

    Any news regarding the Hoare/Hore Family reunion?


  61. Hello there, I am the granddaughter of Rodger & Olga Hore who lived in Wagga Wagga NSW.
    We are interested in more information about the 200 anniversary of the wedding of the first Hore family in Australia which I believe is this coming July. What plans do you or anyone else have pls.
    I arranged a Hore/Davies family re-union in Wagga Wagga two years ago which was very successful. My dad has written a family book dating right back to the origin of the Hoare/Hore family and is very keen to have more information.
    Thank you for your time.
    Joy Kneale

  62. Hi James,

    I am so happy to have found your website!

    John and Martha Love are my gggg grandparents, through their daughter Elizabeth, whose daughter Mary married Michael O’Loughlan in 1845 at Appin.

    I would love to know if anything is being planned for the 200 year anniversary of the 1809 marriage of John Hore and Elizabeth?

    Also, if there are other descendants of Mary and Michael O’Loughlan, I would also love to know more about the O’Loughlans, especially those that went to Victoria. Any information at all would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you for so generously sharing all your research. It is SO interesting!


    1. Hi Maria,
      I am a descendant of Mary and Michael O’Loughlan. They were my great-great grandparents. Their grand-daughter Myra Keating was my grandmother.


      1. Hi John,
        I am descended from John Andrew O’Loughlan son of Mary and Michael O’Loughlan. John was my Grandmother’s father. I am researching the O’Loughlan family and would welcome any info about the O’Loughlans.


        1. Wendy & James,
          I am researching the O’Loughlan family on behalf of my partner who is a great granddaughter of John Andrew O’Loughlan and the grand daughter of Henry James O’Loughlan.

          James, please pass on my e-mail address to these people who have expressed an interest in the O’Loghlans of Victoria.
          Maria Bate
          John Nicol
          Wendy Leason

    2. hi maria
      im a decendant on the oloughlan side they are my ggg grandparents. i havent got much after micheal & mary olaughlan


  63. Re: Get-Together. I’ve been avoiding this for a while. But I don’t really have the time to organise anything in this regard. Work is just a little too busy for me right now. Does anyone else want to take the lead on this?

  64. Hi James

    I am a descent of John Hoare, his Daughter Sarah married James Seymour, their son Andrew Seymour, married Margaret Carbery, Their Daughter Lillian Seymour Married John Phillips, There son Allen Phillips is My Grandfather.

    Does anyone have any information regarding the Father of John Phillips, Michael Phillips Born in Sunderland, Durham, England?

    I am just starting to research my family tree.
    Thanks for the Information.
    From Riah

  65. Hi James.
    Ive been trying to gather my family tree together and have discovered I am a descendent of John Waite and Mary Robinson. I came across your site and feel I may fit in, though Im trying to work out where John and mary fit in??
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    regards, kerry.

  66. Thanks for your wonderful site. I am a descendant of John and Elizabeth’s daughter, Mary Hoare who married Michael O’Loughlan. One of their grandchildren, Myra Cecily Maud Keating was my paternal grandmother. She married a John Campbell Nicol.

  67. Hi James and everyone,

    I come from the same branch of the family as Kellie Jones- John Love, John Hore, Andrew Hore, John Hore, John Richard Hore, Myrtle Anne Barton nee Hore, Betty Barberis nee Barton, Carole Curnow nee Barberis.

    I found out recently about the family tree after my mother, Betty Barberis nee Barton had an exhibition about the artistic gene in the Barton/Hore/Macrae families at the new Museum in Albury in 2007. I met Kellie there, she is the grand daughter of my Great Aunt Edna of Tawonga (now 94). The Museum now has Esther Hore’s trousseau, as part of its collection, there are numerous pieces all handworked, exemplifying tatting and embroidery, darning and lace making. It is exquisite work.

    John Richard Hore and his wife Esther (Doubleday) were the proprieters of the Bogong Hotel at Tawonga. My Grandfather, Roderick Barton,(husband of Dolly Hore (Myrtle Anne) of Kent Meadows, Gundowring was a carpenter and helped construct a series of bungalows at the hotel. They were the summer haunt of many great Australian artists including, Arthur Streeton and Septimus Power.

    It must have been very unfashionable to have any connection to convicts as Grandma never mentioned her “family”. We discussed the Barton family history, Richard Barton from Kent who selected land at Gundowring in 1870. The families of Dick Hore and Rod Barton were really large so on the Barton side I have at least 48 first cousins…

    Thank you for such a great read!!!

  68. This is a wonderful site – I have been researching my husband’s family for a few years now, and your site has allowed me to elaborate on so many of the ancestors I
    had found. We are connected through Mary Hoare who married Michael O’Laughlan. Their daughter Mary married Henry Haydon, my husband’s gr grandfather.
    Thank you for this lovely site and possible future connections.

    1. Hi, just came across your post, My family line looks like it goes back to Michael and Mary (O’Laughlan) Hoare. Anna Maria O’Lauchlan born 1863 married George Henry Haydon born 1857 and their son John Henry Earl Haydon born 1893 is my grandfather. I have just started trying to join the dots, its fun but confusing.

  69. Thank you for your very informative site on the HORE Families.
    I am a distant relation of Leila Minnie BOUTCHER who married Sidney West HORE, the son of Robert Andrew HORE and Margaret (Maggie) McINNES.
    Leila Minnie BOUTCHER was the daughter of Charles BOUTCHER and Mary Ann HALL.
    I have a list of the Descendants of Charles BOUTCHER plus photos.
    I would like to correspond with you and perhaps swap records.
    Thank you once again for your very informative site.
    Best Regards,
    Charlie HAWES

    1. Hi James
      Great site. John Hoare and Elizabeth Love are my ggg-grandparents. My grandmother Minnie was the daughter of Andrew who was the son of Andrew, son of John and Elizabeth.
      There doesn’t seem to be much information of Minnie available, if you are interested in her story I would be more than happy to supply you with what I know. you may contact me by email if you are interested

    2. I am the grand daughter of Leila Minnie Boutcher and Sidney West Hore. My father is John Hore, son of Sidney. Sidney had 7 children, 5 sons and 2 daughters. John Hore and Elizabeth Love are my great, great, great grandparents. John (Sidney’s son has 3 sons and 3 daughters). Leila’s 2 daughter’s are still alive as is my father John. All doing well in their mid to late 80’s. Many of Leila’s grandchildren and 2 of her 3 still living children continue to reside in the Albury area. Julie

    3. I am the grand daughter of Leila Minnie Boutcher and Sidney West Hore. My father is John Hore, son of Sidney. Sidney had 7 children, 5 sons and 2 daughters. John Hore and Elizabeth Love are my great, great, great grandparents. John (Sidney’s son John has 3 sons and 3 daughters). Leila’s 2 daughter’s are still alive as is my father John. All doing well in their mid to late 80’s. Many of Leila’s grandchildren and 2 of her 3 still living children continue to reside in the Albury area. PS Hard to comprehend all these relatives. Great site. PS Robert Andrew Hore has 11 children Sydney being just one of them. Julie

      1. Hi Julie, I am so glad that you have replied to my message. My Grandmother Ida Ethel Hawes (Nee Boutcher) is the sister of Leila. I have the 7 children listed that you mention. I would like more information on John HORE and Margaret Doreen BYRNE and their children.
        I can send to you what I have of the BOUTCHER and HORE families.
        My Email address is:-
        Looking forward to hearing from you.
        Best Regards,
        Charlie HAWES.

  70. Hi James,

    re Jessie Finlayson, the wife of Andrew Hore born in Airds, according to the Monaro Pioneers site, her mother, Mary Douglas was the first white woman in the Upper Murray.

  71. Hi James.
    Wow, it is a great website.
    I am related to the Seymour family that is connected to this family also.
    From Annette.

  72. Marriage
    Groom HORE HENRY
    District SYDNEY

    Do this couple fit in any were their daughter Charlotte b 1886 m James Pearson 1905 and are my g grandparents.


  73. Hi James, Ref your par on Eliza Hoare on this page – as under:
    “* Eliza Hoare was born 1833 at Airds, NSW. She married Sampson Courtney Boyland on 12th February 1853 at Wollongong, NSW. ”
    Thought you might like to see attachment from NSW Archives.


    The ship is the “Alfred” not the Arthur, and the listing is on Page 3, 4th line down.
    Enjoy China .

  74. Hi James,
    I found your article to be fascinating! My uncle, Neil Waite has traced our family tree and Elizabeth Waite is part of that tree. I am not sure if you are aware, but there is another Neil Waite who has won several horse riding competions who’s listed place of residence is Wymah, I found that an interesting coincidence! Regards

    1. Hi Neil, my mother used to correspond with Neil Waite who did the family tree. I have been unable to contact him and have been wondering where he is. The young Neil is part of my extended family and now lives on my grandparent!s former property at Wymah.

  75. Hello James, I came upon your website when I typed in Doomed Talgarno. I copied some of the book years ago. What a wonderful surprise to find your website. Thank you so much. I have always wanted to know more about the Hores. My mother Mabel Rodgers nee Drummond was Matilda Drummond nee Hore’s daughter. Matilda was the daughter of Andrew and Jessie. I have a couple of things I would like to share with you including an article written about Jessie Hore at the time of her 85th birthday. I also have a copy of P.S. Wymah 1873 – 1973 in which is the photo of Andrew and Jessie. I would love a better copy of the photo and wonder if I could be in touch with Kellie Jones and perhaps she could email me a copy. My mother’s sister Elsie was the image of Jessie. Best wishes Dorothy Hyde

  76. The township of Douglass Park was originally called Hoare Town. It was one of two land grants approved south of Camden Park. Dr Henry Grattam Douglass, a close friend of Governor Brisbane, owned the Hoare Town land grant. It was at some stage changed to Douglas Park after Douglass himself.
    Is the town’s former name a reference to a members) of John Hoare’s family from Appin and Airds perhaps?
    Any Information?

    1. Hi Chris, this is really interesting. Google hasn’t been much help, though I note from a BHP Billiton assessment of the land someone called Cathy Hoare provided information. Perhaps a concidence? James

      1. James I just found your site. Elizabeth and John Hoare were my great great great grandparents. I am the daughter of Josephine Bessie Hore (who married Anthony Thomas Monks), and Bessie as she was called is the daughter of Pierce Wagra Hore, Hotelier of Cowra, and Mary Anne Mulvihill. The father of Pierce Wagra Hore was Thomas Hore, who was the son of John and Elizabeth Hoare. Bessie Hore was an orphan. Her two sisters went into the convent, Mab into the Brigadine convent, and May was Mother HOre of the Sacred Heart Order, Kincopple, Elizabeth Bay, Sydney. N.S.W. Bessie also had two brothers, Tom and Jack and an infant William died as a baby. Josephine Bessie Hore was born on 26th June, 1906 at Cowra. My name was Hilarie Monks, and I married John Bardsley Roseman. We live in Victoria. email We have 8 children and 13 grandchildren.

  77. Thanks James. I had come across that BHP doco myself as well as some individuals in which Douglass and Hoare feature together – such as Minnie Victoria Douglass (nee Hoare)who was born in 1898 wife of Wesley Roy Douglass – so I had wondered about the possibility of H G Douglass naming the town originally after a firend or relation. Maybe just coincidence as you say. Shall keep looking. if you find anything please let me know. Chris

  78. I’m a decendant of Mary Hore from my maternal great grandmother Myra Nicol, I’ve got a fair few details of my liniage up to John and Elizabeth Hore but I was wonderng if anyone had any details of further back than that?????

  79. Hello James – many thanks for being so generous with your information. I am not related but I my great grandparents (Barclay) and great grandparents (Jackson) lived and presumably worked on both Wagra and Bungil. My great grandmother is listed as being at Bungil at the time of her death and my grandfather was born at Wagra. I was reading about John Hoare yesterday in the Albury library – I think your piece here is more informative. Cheers, julie

    1. Hello again James – do you have any records of people who lived and worked on Wagra and Bungil? Or perhaps point me in the direction?
      Cheers, Julie

      1. Hi Julie, thanks for your lovely comments. My feeling about sharing is we’re all chasing the same people really, and collaboration and co-operation is a far better approach than everyone chasing the same bits of information indvidisually. I’m interested in what you saw in the Albury library – was it an interesting article? On the issue of Wagra and Bungil – no I’m sorry, but hopefully people reading here might be able to help? Cheers, James

  80. Should any descendants of John Hoare and Elizabeth Love be interested, the annual Mass at the Dapto West Catholic Cemetery where John & Elizabeth are buried in one of the oldest graves is on at 10am, Saturday 30th of November this year. Hore family members usually meet then for lunch at one of the local Clubs.

    1. Hi Terry, I am a descendant of Andrew Hore and I am interested in the reunion at adaptor. Are you having one this year? If you are can you email the details please?

      1. Jennifer: I was up at Shellharbour from Victoria a couple of weeks ago and went out to the Dapto West Catholic Cemetery which now has large new gates out at the roadway. The sign on the fence says “Requiem Mass will be celebrated here on the last Saturday in November at 10:00am”. The best contact if you’re interested in attending would be Marie Chin (Nee Hore) who lives in the area and connected with the Church. 02 4295 7582.

    2. Terry I am a descendant of Martha Hoare and John Robinson and my sister and I would be interested in attending any future Mass that would be held. If possible could you keep me informed.

  81. Hi James

    Love the site, thank you – certainly helps to fill in a few gaps!

    I’m a 5 x great grandson of John HOARE and Elizabeth LOVE (through their son Andrew HOARE and Jessie FINDLAYSON). In addition to this, my extended family tree contains multiple connections over several generations between the HOARE/HORE, JACKSON, MCINNES, SEYMOUR and WAITE families mentioned on this site and on Terry HORE’s .

    Hoping you can put me in touch with Julie HIND (who posted a comment here in Feb 2012 re her JACKSON and BARCLAY great grandparents on Wagra and Bungil)? Seems like a strong possibility we’re related…my 2 x great grandfather (in my abovementioned descent) was John Henry “Jack” JACKSON, whose paternal grandparents were William JACKSON and Jane BARCLAY and I believe they were both connected with the Wagra property.

  82. Hi James

    John Hoare and Elizabeth Love were my Great-Great-Grand parents. I am descended through Andrew and his son John Hore, and then his daughter Eliza.

    Interestingly, the family tree at Terry Hore’s site for Eliza is slightly incomplete, as it is missing two of her eight children, my mother Annie Rebecca Doubleday (1910-2013 ….. yes 103 years old when she died!), and my Aunty, Nellie Eileen Doubleday (1916-2005).

    Eliza Hore’s branch of the family are holding a family reunion in the next couple of weeks, so I am looking forward to catching up with some of my Doubleday cousins that I have not seen for many years!

  83. What an interesting site, I had a lot of information up to John Hore and Elizabeth Love but nothing prior to that, so thank you. I am related to John & Elizabeth through their son William. My grandfather was William Stanley Hore, son of Robert. William married Amy Nugent and we grew up in Walwa Vic. Would love any information on that line of the family. Trish (nee Hore)

  84. Love the site, I am related By Love, Hoare, Rixon, what interesting families they were.
    Thank you for the wonderful information. Faye Taylor

  85. Hi James
    Thanks for sharing all of the above.
    I am a descendant of John Robinson & Martha Hoare. Very interesting to read about Martha’s heritage.
    Many thanks
    Simon Robinson

    1. Hello Simon My maiden name was Robinson and I too am a descendant of John Robinson and Martha Hoare. A very interesting story
      Anne-Marie Barnett

  86. Hi there what great reading. My boys ancestry comes from john robinson/martha hore/scubach etc side. I picked up an old australian pioneer book which was probably 30 years ago anf found the Hore/Robinson connection there. The b00k was in the library and i really wanted to take it, but being honest i didnt. Loved your terrific features here and photos.

  87. Hi I am also a descendant of the Hores from Wymah, my grandmother was Linda May Hore who married John Surridge

  88. John and Elizabeth Hore and a number of descendants are buried at West Dapto. A new book on those buried in the cemetery is about to be published. Anyone interested in this cemetery contact Wendy & Terry Nunan at

  89. Hi my husband is the great grandson of John Thomas SEYMOUR (abt 1842-1911) of Grenfell. Recent ancestory DNA results suggest a link to Sarah Hoare but I am struggling to put it together. I have seen mentions here of Terry Hore’s website but don’t seem to be able to access it.Any help or advice would be much appreciated

  90. Hi I am descended from James Rixon and Elizabeth Hoare. Their son James married Sarah Spears. Their son Charles married Esther Love whose parents were John Love and Ellen Sullivan. I know only a little about the Love family and I think John belongs to the family I have been reading about on this fabulous site.

  91. Hi James, do you know of a book written called The Love Story? It was written about the Hoare families! I believe it was done in Queensland Australia! I am a Hore descendant!! Apparently it goes back 220 yrs!!!!

    1. Hi Rose

      I suspect you’re referring to “A family began with ‘Love’” by Margaret and Lyle Cooper, 2011. It was released at a family reunion in Rockhampton, Qld to celebrate 220 years since the arrival of John and Martha Love. A fantastic resource! My copy is boxed up due to a recent move but I’d be glad to dig it out if you’d like a lookup or ordering details.

      Where do you fit in? I’m 5xGGson of John HOARE and Elizabeth Amelia LOVE (through their son Andrew)


      1. Thank you sooo much for replying, I would love to get the details of the book when you can. My grandparents were Herbert Hore and Ada Parnaby!! Looking forward to hearing from you!! Thank you once again!!!

    2. Hi Rose, There is also a new publication available on West Dapto Catholic Cemetery, which is where John and Elizabeth Hore are buried as well as Charles’ Hore’s wife Margaret and quite a number of her descendants. Their stories are told in this publication. More details available from Wendy Nunan at

  92. I have enjoyed looking into the Hore family tree. I too am a descendant of John Hoare (Hore) and Elizabeth (nee Love). John & Elizabeth’s son William married Margaret Seymour (Margaret Gralis) their first born son Robert Andrew Hore born 1948 married Margaret McInnes and they had 11 children one being my grandfather Sydney West Hore who married Leila Minnie Boutcher in 1889. Their youngest child John (born 1933) is sill alive (although unwell), John (born 1933) is my father, he married Margaret Byrne in 1960 & they had six children. John has three sons Gregory, Craig and Bradley, daughters Julie, Jennifer & Fiona. Gregory has 3 children including 2 sons John & Luke, Craig has 4 children including a son Thomas (Thomas has a young son). John’s siblings Lola born 1927 & Nancy born 1928 are still alive and well.
    John has 15 grand children & 7 great grandchildren.
    Recently a few of John’s & Lola’s children & grandchildren drove to Wymah to the Wymah Public School (now a museum to the area and its descendants etc). We all still love hearing stories from Dad and Lola about their years growing up in Wymah and all the extended family etc.

    Julie Wright (Hore)

    1. Hi, My grandfather was the youngest child of Robert and Margaret. William Stanley Hore 1901 he married Amy Margaret Nugent. They had six children Shirley (died six days old) James, Donald, Max, Darryl and Ray. Ray is still alive and well. My father was Donald. We grew up in the Walwa/Jingellic area. I recently visited Norfolk Island and was able to find information on John Hoare. Felt a little like walking in the footsteps of my ancestor. I now live in Canberra. Happy to share any information. Trish

      1. Hi Trish welcome along. It would be interesting to know what you found on Norfolk Island. (By way of co-incidence, I’m thinking it might be a holiday destination for me this year).

  93. There are four possible statements of age for John Hoare:

    7 Sep 1795 – age 22, born Wexford (entered in a column headed “Place and County Where Born”), [enlistment records from Port of London – reported on this blog by Graham Lewis]. Implies birth year of 1772/73.

    1 Apr 1801 – age 23 on the prison hulk Captivity. Implies birth year of 1777/78.

    1828 – age 50 on population muster. Implies birth year of 1777/78.

    2 Apr 1862 – age 84 on death, native of county Wexford. Implies birth year of 1777/78

    The last three are definitely the convict and all agree on a birth year of 1777/78. The only Australian record indicating a birthplace is the gravestone. There is no suggestion on the gravestone that he was born in the town of Wexford, and no reason to suppose that he was.

    Many have proposed that the 1776 baptism in Wexford town of John Hore son of Francis Hore and Mary Howlet is the Australian convict. There is no reason to suppose that it is, and one reason to reject it as a candidate.

    The convict John has been very consistent about his age through his life. If he is actually correct then the 1776 baptism cannot be him – it is too early. The evidence for his literacy is mixed, but to say the 1776 baptism is likely presupposes that John Hore is such a rare name in county Wexford that any candidate within a few years of his calculated birth year must be probable. There is no reason at all to suppose that John Hore is in any way such a rare name.

    The town of Wexford is unusual in Ireland for having registers that survive from the 1770s. Most parish registers in County Wexford are not this old. There were 138 civil parishes, and the National Library of Ireland has records for 44 Catholic parishes. Of these only 8 have records pre 1800 and of these a mere 3 have records pre 1780:

    Kilmore, registers commence 1752;

    Old Ross, registers commence 1778 with one earlier year 1759;

    Wexford town, registers commence 1671.

    So the odds of finding the correct baptism for the convict John Hore/Hoare are extremely low. Without finding in Australian records some more exact location for his birth or a record of his parent’s names, it is impossible to make any meaningful assessment of ANY candidate baptism.

    As far as the 1776 baptism is concerned the name of the father, Francis, actually argues against it being correct. With at least six sons, I think it most unlikely convict John Hoare would not have named one after his father. Furthermore the name does not occur in any of the next generation that I am aware of.

    Was John literate? There are three potential records of his signature:

    1. His marriage to Elizabeth Love in 1809. Transcript shows he signed as “John Hore” and Elizabeth made her mark [Scan of NSW BDM transcript]

    2. As a witness to the marriage of his sister in law Mary Love to Thomas McGuire in 1819 at Liverpool. He signs as “Joh Hore”. [Register image on Ancestry]

    3. As householder in the 1841 NSW census. Signs with mark. It is possible this signature could be his son, also named John. John snr is the head, or in charge of, the Establishment, while John jnr is Proprietor thereof. The signature “John his X mark Hore” is of the Householder, a third term which could mean either the Head or the Proprietor (not good form design!). John jnr appears to have signed his will, so if the census “mark” is John snr and if the two marriage register signatures are him, then he must have had a stroke or some other health problem. [Image on Ancestry]

    1. If my supposition that the 1841 census shows John Hore snr had suffered some health issue that removed his previous ability to write his name is sustained, then perhaps that is the reason (or a contributing factor) for his move to the Illawarra.

  94. Here is a full transcription of Elizabeth Love’s death certificate (448/1878):

    Date and place of death: 3rd March 1878, 444 Castlereagh Street
    Name and occupation: Elizabeth Hore
    Sex and age: Female, 96 years
    Cause of Death: Bronchitis
    Duration of last illness: 3 days
    Medical attendant: D. Fortescue
    When he last saw deceased: 2nd March 1878
    Name and occupation of father: John Love, Sergeant in 102 Reg
    Name and maiden surname of mother: unknown
    Informant: Certified by Henry Kinsela, 737 George Street
    Particulars of Registration: (1) G…. (illegible) (2) 4th March 1878 (3) Sydney
    Where and where buried: 5th March 1878, Dapto Cemetery
    Name of undertaker: C. Kinsela and sons
    Name and religion of Minister: C.H. Ferguson
    Names of witnesses of burial: Edwin [McHue? or McRae]
    Where born: Bristol, England
    How long in the Australasian Colonies or States: 80 years in N. S. Wales
    Place of marriage, age, and to whom: (1) Sydney (2) 23 (3) John Hore
    Children of marriage: 5 males, 4 females Living; 1 male, 4 females deceased

    The certificate is internally inconsistent with none of the ages or the time in the colony matching up, highlighting how unreliable death certificates can be. There are also more deceased children than birth or muster records show. Known deceased children are Anthony, Martha and Sarah. There is very little space in the succession of children to fit another two, so this may be another inaccuracy.

    If Elizabeth was really 96 when she died then she was aged 27 at marriage and had been in the colony 87 years – not the 23 and 80 stated on the certificate. This age also conflicts with the incorrect age of 80 written on the 1865 photo – if the photo age was true then Elizabeth would have been 93 when she died.

    If Elizabeth was 96 when she died, then she gave birth to son Charles at age 55 years and 6 months – almost impossible.

    The informant is one of the undertakers, who has probably no personal knowledge of the deceased and so would have obtained his information from a member of the family. There are three obvious candidates for that real informant – daughter Ann Phibbs in whose house Elizabeth died, son Charles Hore who attended the funeral, and the child of Ann Phibbs who annotated the back of the 1865 photo of Elizabeth Hore and Ann Phibbs.

    Ann Phibbs and her child can probably be eliminated on the basis of the stated age – if they thought she was 80 in 1865 they are unlikely to add an extra three years to her age at death. The lack of mother’s name also argues against the informant being Ann Phibbs. As Elizabeth’s eldest child she is the most likely of all the children to remember her grandmother’s name. She was 11 when Martha Love died.

    That leaves Charles as the most likely source of the information on the certificate. He is also the most likely source of the information on the gravestone and in the obituary. The obituary reports that he is a West Dapto resident and that he was at the funeral. The obituary is ambiguous about who attended the funeral – “… the mourners included friends of the deceased from Sydney, in addition to Mr Charles Hore, and several members of his family.” I suspect Charles organised the funeral.

    The obituary mentions two other venerable ladies from the district. There is evidence both of them also had exaggerated ages, with the family relationships mentioned in Mrs John Osborne’s (Catherine Thompson) obituary suggesting that instead of being 98 she was only 76 at death [see shipping record for “Clyde” in 1836]. I get the impression from Elizabeth’s obituary that there was a bit of rivalry going on in the district as to who was the most venerable and had the longest association with the Illawarra– but don’t quote me on that, I have no proof.

    If Charles is the common factor in the death certificate, gravestone and obituary then he clearly has very little idea of the facts. Bristol is nowhere near Hampshire. If “Bristol” and “Hampshire” have any basis in reality, then I suggest they are garbled memories of either birthplace or residence of Elizabeth’s parents John and Martha Love, but given the other demonstrable inaccuracies in the death certificate it is a weak link.

    The totality of the evidence from her lifetime suggests Elizabeth Love was born in the colony – most probably on 28 Jan 1792, and thus aged 86 at death.

    1. Correction to the transcript:

      C.H. Fergsuon is one of the burial witnesses, no minister is named on the certificate. The obit identifies the minister as Rev. P. O’Rielly (sic – probably a typo)

    2. Remove Anthony from the list of deceased children. Re-examination of the 1823 muster shows he is not part of John and Elizabeth’s household. He is probably a convict who arrived in 1818 on the “Martha”. I think there is a possibility John and Elizabeth had another child Maria in 1829 who is a different person to Mary 1826. Maria may have married James Griffiths in 1849 at Dapto and died between 1849 and 1854 when James married Elizabeth Wood. i hope to be in a position to examine the church records in a couple of weeks in order to confirm/eliminate these possibilities.

  95. Here is my transcription of John Hoare’s death certificate (6420/1862):

    No. 353
    Date and place of death: April Twenty fifth 1862, West Dapto
    Name and occupation: John Hoare, farmer
    Sex and age: Male, 84 yrs
    Cause of Death: Natural Causes
    Duration of last illness: Coroners Inquest
    Medical attendant: not stated
    When he last saw deceased: not stated
    Name and occupation of father: unknown
    Name and maiden surname of mother: not stated
    Informant: Certified by D. W. [Noins] Coroner Dapto
    Particulars of Registration: (1) George Rowley Lambert (2) April Twenty eighth 1862 (3) Wollongong
    Where and where buried: April Twenty Seventh 1862, Roman Catholic burial ground, West Dapto
    Name of undertaker: John Caldwell
    Name and religion of Minister: W. V. Johnson, religion not stated
    Names of witnesses of burial: Duncan McRae, John Nunan
    Where born: Ireland
    How long in the Australasian Colonies or States: 30 years in New South Wales
    Place of marriage, age, and to whom: (1) unknown (2) unknown (3) Elizabeth Love
    Children of marriage: not stated

    This is a most disappointing certificate from a genealogical point of view. At least it confirms that the man dying in 1862 is Elizabeth Love’s husband. The most curious aspect is the error in time in the colony. John arrived on the “Canada” on 4 Dec 1801 and so had been in the colony 60 years and almost 5 months at his death. I can think of three possible reasons for the error:

    1. The coroner has simply misread his notes when registering the death;
    2. The family member supplying the information to the coroner is as unreliable as the one supplying the information on Elizabeth Love’s death certificate;
    3. The family member (perhaps Elizabeth since she is mentioned on the certificate) has misunderstood the question as “how long in the Illawarra district?”

    Why a coroner’s inquest? It suggests John has died suddenly away from home and his body was not discovered for some hours. Does anyone know the circumstances legally requiring an inquest in 1862? I have been unable to find a record of the inquest. It was not reported in either the Illawarra Mercury or the Kiama Examiner. The Illawarra Mercury for 29 Apr 1862 did have a brief report on John’s funeral:

    “The Late Mr. Hoare
    On Sunday last the remains of Mr. John Hoare, a colonist of 64 years standing, a great portion of which he spent in this district, were conveyed to their final resting place, followed by between two hundred and fifty and three hundred mourners. So large an attendance shows the high estimation in which the deceased was held, and must have been highly gratifying to the numerous relatives that he has left behind him.”

    1. The inquest number was 14945. Unfortunately the registers for the period May 1859 to Mar 1864, covering inquest numbers 11946 to 17120, have not survived with only indexes available for this period (see

  96. The Elizabeth Friedrich photograph.

    The photo depicts a middle aged woman and an elderly woman seated side by side, both wearing all black clothing which I interpret as “widow’s weeds”.

    The back of the photo contains some printed information plus a number of handwritten notes in pencil and ink written by at least three different hands. The bottom right corner is not torn, but has been eroded by constant handling.

    In probable order of creation the marks are:

    1. Printed (or stamped) in blue/black ink:

    A coat of arms comprising a quartered shield surmounted by a rising sun with supporters a kangaroo and emu over a scroll bearing the text “ADVANCE AUSTRALIA”.

    Beneath this there is some elaborate scroll work in a shield shape enclosing the name of the photographic studio:

    Photographic Gallery
    645 George Street

    Below this is some text in a script font:

    “Copies can be had by sending the
    No ………………”

    The photographer is Wilhelm Heinrich Schröder who arrived in Australia from Hamburg on the ship “Aurora” in 1855. He was naturalised in 1867 describing himself as a photographic artist. He first appears in Sands directory in 1864 as Wm. Henry Schroder photographer at 645 George Street. His address in the directory changes in 1867 to 649 George Street. So the Phibbs/Hore photograph must have been taken between 1864 and 1866.

    2. Written in black/brown ink by Hand 1, between the photographer’s identity and the copies statement:

    “No 172” [underlined]

    This presumably the negative number, to be used when ordering copies.

    3. Written sideways in pencil on the left side, also by Hand 1, three rows of numbers:

    “4 2 6
    2 5 –
    1 7 6”

    The “2” in the first line appears to be a correction of an originally written “3”. The numbers and the first part of the line are purple with the right hand end of the line and a flourish at the end in black/grey. My interpretation is that these numbers represent some form of price calculation by the studio. The number “7” is identical to the same number on the negative number. I think it possible the change in colour is a chemical reaction related to the environment in which the photo has been stored.

    4. Written in pencil to the right of the negative number the letters “W.C.” possibly also by Hand 1.

    No idea what this means, but I would hazard a guess that it might be the initials of the shop assistant.

    5. Written in very faint pencil, the numbers “1184” on the dotted line of the copies instruction, possibly also by Hand 1.

    A mystery as to why there are apparently two copy numbers.

    6. Written in black ink by Hand 2 below the copies instruction:

    “Elizabeth Hore
    Grandmother was 80 years
    On the 28th of January last
    Taken on the [“the” crossed out] June 6th 18..5”

    The last date is obscured by the damage to the corner of the photo. However magnifying the higher resolution image does show what appears to me to be a very cramped “5” in the corner.

    7. Written in black ink by Hand 2 upside down at the top:

    “Ann Phibbs.
    Mother 54 years 9th of
    May last. Taken on the
    same date.”

    The last sentence shows the Phibbs note was written after the Hore note. There is only one photo, not two, so there can only be one “taken on” date. Both notes must have been written before 28 Jan 1866.

    8. Written in blue ink by Hand 3, sideways on the left, overlaying the pencil price calculation:

    “say 1865” [underlined]

    This must have been written some years later than the other descriptions, after the damage to the corner where the year of photography is written.


    The key data from a genealogical point of view are the two names, two ages, two birthdays, three relationships (the annotator to each woman and the implied relationship between the two women), date the photo was taken and the dates the photographic studio existed at 645 George Street.

    We know Ann Phibbs (nee Hoare) was born 9 May 1811, Elizabeth Hore (nee Love) was widowed 25 Apr 1862 and Ann Phibbs was widowed 24 Nov 1863 [baptism and death certificates].

    If the clothing in the photo does show both women are widows, and the photographic studio did not exist until 1864 then it is impossible the photo can have been taken in 1862, as suggested by some. I believe this suggestion is a calculation that has arisen from an unquestioning assumption of the correctness of the claimed ages in the photo and at death for Elizabeth Love. I have already shown the age of 96 at death is impossible.

    The estimate written by Hand 3, the Sands Directory entries, and the figure “5” I see on the photo corner all support a photograph date of 6 Jun 1865. At this date:

    Ann Phibbs did have her 54th birthday on 9 May 1865 (last May) and was a widow of 1.5 years;
    Elizabeth Hore/Hoare would have had her 73rd birthday on 28 Jan 1865 (last Jan) and was a widow of 3.2 years.

    54 seems a reasonable age for the younger woman in the photo. It is harder to tell the age of the older woman, especially as I think she has lost a lot of teeth, but 73 also seems reasonable. Neither Ann nor her child who made the annotations can have had any direct knowledge of Elizabeth’s age. An age of 80 on 6 Jun 1865 means she would have been 52 years 6 months at birth of her son Charles, and had two other children at ages 46 and 48. This means “80” is almost certainly a guess, or a deliberate exaggeration. All the other evidence during her life suggests this age is not accurate.

    Further insight might be gained by identifying the two annotators. Does anyone have verified examples of the handwriting of any of Ann Phibbs’ descendants? Her children Thomas, Mary and Robert were not married by 1865 and so could have still been living with Ann Phibbs.

    1. hello , i was wondering by reading all this grand information if there is any connection to my farther RODERICK SYDNEY HOARE he was born 1941 Wenlock SHROPSHIRE his mothers maiden name was LOWE if you could let me know appreciated don’t know where his mother was born or history

      1. Sorry, no connection. Roderick has entirely English ancestry back to a William Hoare born 1791 in Petersfield Hampshire, and Doris Evelyn Lowe was born 1908 with London ancestry back to William Albert Lowe about 1848. Not the slightest hint of any connection to Australia or Ireland.

  97. Re Maria Hore. Here is my research findings for the West Dapto cemetery book.
    Maria Hore born 20.03.1829 Appin, baptised 13.05.1829 Bunburry Curran by Rev. John Joseph Therry. Baptism listed in Fr Therry’s records, St Mary’s RC Sydney with parents listed as John Hore and Eliza Love (second record has Elizabeth Love). Godparents William Byrne and Miss Elizabeth Hore. Married 04.09.1849 Dapto, James Griffiths. Married by Rev. Peter Young, RC priest. Witnesses Thomas Hoare and Eliza Hoare. Bride listed as Maria Hoare. Maria probably died between 1849 and 1854. Maria’s husband, James Griffiths, was of Mittagong. James Griffiths, son of John Griffiths and Sarah Phillips, married 14.08.1854 All Saints’ C/E Sutton Forest, Elizabeth Wood. It is highly likely this was the same James Griffiths, hence the death time-frame for Maria.

    1. Hi Wendy, that is wonderful confirmation of where my research seems to be leading me. It means Mary Hore and Maria Hoare are separate individuals.

      James Griffiths’ death certificate shows no children were born of his first marriage, but the informant (son Charles Abraham Griffiths) does know Maria Hoare’s name and that they married about 1848. I can’t find any record of children, so I think that argues for an early death, especially given the number of children produced by Maria’s sisters and her mother.

      This leaves potentially one female and one male to be identified from the children listed on Elizabeth Love’s death certificate (but noting the certificate has a number of inaccuracies). All the 12 confirmed children of John Hoare and Elizabeth Love have a recorded baptism. I think Martha, Andrew and Sarah were baptised the same day (with Andrew incorrectly indexed as Andrew Huon). Therefore if there are another two children it seems probable they died before they could be baptised. Do you have any information on the possible triple baptism?

      A possibility for the missing male might be Henry born 1826 and possibly dying 1829 perhaps at Sydney. He is the son of a John and Eliza Hore. There are no other recorded children of this couple and I have been unable to find any other evidence of their separate existence. However the reference number for Henry is quite different to Mary, so he still may be a different family.

  98. Hi James and fellow researchers,

    I have just read Clontarf’s excellent analysis of 23 May 2021 about the writing on the back of the “Elizabeth Friederich” photo of Ann Phibbs and her mother Elizabeth Hore (nee Love). At the end of his analysis, Clontarf says “further insight might be gained by identifying the two annotators”.

    The original of this photo is still in the safekeeping of my wife Elizabeth Friederich. It may help those interested in this significant photo to know its provenance, and the probable annotators. So I will tell you what we know:

    1.The photo was given to Elizabeth Friederich’s mother, Phyllis in 1966 by Phyllis’ aunt, Mary Ann Hart.

    2. Mary Ann Hart was a daughter of Charles Robinson the Younger of Delegate NSW. After the death of Mary Ann’s mother when she was six, she was raised by her older first cousin Sarah Binnie (nee Robinson) who was married to Alexander Binnie and lived in the Eden area.

    3. Mary Ann Hart said the photo was given to her for safekeeping by Tom Robinson, brother of the Sarah Binnie (nee Robinson) who raised her.

    4. It is relevant that the mother of siblings Sarah Binnie and Tom Robinson was Sarah Robinson (nee Rixon), daughter of Ann Phibbs through Ann’s first marriage to Willam Rixon. (Sarah Rixon married her first cousin John Robinson the Younger, and lived near Eden. John Robinson the Younger was the son of Ann Phibb’s sister Martha Hore, who married John Robinson the Elder).

    5. Since the photo has been handed down through the Eden-based family of Ann Phibb’s daughter Sarah, I’m pretty sure annotator Hand 2 was Sarah referring to her mother Ann Phibbs and grandmother Elizabeth Hore (nee Love).

    6. The writing in blue ink by annotator Hand 3 “say 1865” was already on the back of the photo when it was given to Phyllis by Mary Ann Hart in 1966. It was most likely written by one of the earlier owners of the photo – either Mary Ann Hart, Tom Robinson, or possibly, Sarah Robinson (nee Rixon).

    Bob Friederich

  99. Hi all
    Very new to all this. I find I am related to John Hoare twice as both Ann Rixon and Martha Robinson are both direct ancestors of mine.Have fallen down the rabbit hole and found the information on here very useful
    Thanks for that
    Gayle Ferguson( my Nana was a Robinson)

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